Who is a Christian?
Determining who is a Christian is a somewhat daunting task. Liturgical Christians, such as the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Copts, would say a Christian is a baptized person, or at least someone actively seeking baptism. Non-liturgical Christians, like Baptists or Anabaptists, would say becoming a Christian is merely a matter of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. Anyone who proclaims with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believes in their heart that He is risen from the dead, is a Christian.
Since the act of baptism is understood to deliver the grace to believe in Christ, a Christian is defined by by belief, and to a certain extent, or for certain groups, by baptism. "Right belief" (aka orthodoxy) is paramount, and the extent of right belief is not limited to the deity of Christ. It also includes proper understanding of the Trinity. So, even though Mormons agree that Jesus Christ is God, Mormons are not considered Christians because Mormons insist that the Trinity is made up of three SEPARATE persons, while Christianity teaches the Trinity is made up of three DISTINCT persons.
The difference between "separate" and "distinct" is important. Each member of a family is separate from every other member. Even conjoined (aka Siamese) twins each have separate body parts that only one of the two twins control. Distinct, on the other hand, is like the facets of a diamond: each facet is distinct, but all the facets together are aspects of the same diamond.
In a similar (but not identical) way, the One Divine Nature is completely owned by each of the Three Persons, each Person of the Godhead owning the one Divine Nature completely unto Himself, the Godhead is not shared. Yet there is only one Godhead. It is not clear how this works, Christians are just required to believe that it does. In this sense, understanding the Trinity is similar in some aspects to understanding quantum mechanics or gravity - we don't know how it works, we just know that it does.
Who is a Jew?
If defining a Christian is hard, now let's try defining who is a Jew. Being Jewish is neither a matter of belief nor a matter of praxis. Christians have a hard time wrapping their heads around this:
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.
Unfortunately, being Jewish is not identifiably genetic either:
Genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent:
It becomes overwhelmingly clear that although Jews maintained detectable vertical genetic continuity along generations of socio-religious-cultural relationship, also intensive horizontal genetic relations were maintained both between Jewish communities and with the gentile surrounding. Thus, in spite of considerable consanguinity, there is no Jewish genotype to identify.
And since it is not genetically identifiable, being Jewish is most assuredly not a tribal or national identity:
The refusal of the [Israeli] Supreme Court to accept the plea of 21 citizens [most of them well-known veterans of movements of civil rights], to recognize them as belonging to an Israeli nation […] is another expression of the failure of the civil struggle for the image of Israel. Sixty-five years after its establishment the authorities do not recognize an Israeli nation, disconnected of a religious definition or ethnic belonging. […]
In their decision, the judges deny the existence of an Israeli nation, and assert that it has not been proven that an Israeli nationality disconnected of a religious definition or ethnic belonging exists...
...Judge Haim Cohen responded: “the definition must be given by every single Jew for himself. If a person says of himself that he is a Jew, for me he is a Jew. This is his autonomy and nobody can decide for him or instead of him whether he is a Jew or not. There is no need in definitions.”
Now, it is clearly the case that many (but not all) Jews have distinct DNA links to historical groups. The Cohen priesthood lineage, for example, is interesting:
The results of the analysis of the Y chromosome markers of the Cohanim and non-Cohanim were indeed significant. A particular marker, (YAP-) was detected in 98.5 percent of the Cohanim, and in a significantly lower percentage of non-Cohanim (emphasis added).
FURTHER CONFIRMATION
In a second study, Dr. Skorecki and associates gathered more DNA samples and expanded their selection of Y chromosome markers. Solidifying their hypothesis of the Cohens' common ancestor, they found that a particular array of six chromosomal markers was found in 97 of the 106 Cohens tested.
But, notice, the DNA linkage is not perfect. There are a significant number of gentile men who bear the Cohen gene, yet are not identified by anyone as being Jewish. There are Jewish men who claim to be descended from the ancient priestly caste, they are even recognized as being related to that caste, yet they have no DNA marker to indicate that they actually are. Genetic tests may show that two-fifths of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from four women, but that means three-fifths are not. And it says nothing at all about Mizhraic, Sephardic, Ethiopian, or Cochin Jews, the last two of which trace their own lines via patrilineal descent, not matrilineal descent.
Despite this, Israel still uses genetic testing to determine if someone is Jewish.
In February of this year, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, reported that the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, the peak religious authority in the country, had been requesting DNA tests to confirm Jewishness before issuing some marriage licenses.
But, this farcical "genetic Judaism" is no more or less reliable than the claim to be genetically a Viking:
Vikings as a group don't exist anymore.
However, they have descendants all over Europe and the Scandinavian countries.
In many Scandinavian countries, many people dedicate their lives to living like the Vikings did long ago.
There are Viking villages in Norway and Sweden where people recreate the Viking way of life.
So, we have the odd situation wherein there seems to be no clear definition of what constitutes being Jewish, nor any authority who can clarify it. There are merely a lot of people who recreate what they understand to be the ancient Jewish way of life, and on that basis, claim to be Jewish.
But there is not even any real agreement on what constitutes that way of life. For instance, Jews who accept the Talmud as authoritative will necessarily follow the teachings of one or more of the rabbis whose commentary makes up the Talmud. Such Jews will insist that anyone born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of belief, because that's what they read in the Talmud. Of course, this opens the question: which Talmud? For there are actually two versions, and no clear way to determine which is authoritative: the Babylonian Talmud or the Jerusalem (Palestinian) Talmud?
The differences are significant. For instance, the Jerusalem Talmud says, "“Whoever saves a single life is considered by scripture to have saved the whole world." while the Babylonian Talmud says, ""Whoever destroys a soul from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he saved an entire world." One version of the Talmud says saving anyone's life is like saving the whole world, the other says that only the saving of a Jewish life is like saving the whole world. Which one is authoritative?
And once we ask which Talmud is authoritative, we must first ask if either Talmud should be accepted as authoritative at all. For instance, Karaite Jews reject the Talmud, the authority of rabbis and they also reject the idea of matrilineal descent. For Karaites, whose chief authority is the Torah, and who hold rabbinic commentary in no special esteem, the patrilineal descent determines whether you are Jewish. That is, if you are born of a Jewish father, you are Jewish. For the Karaites, how Jewish your mother is does not enter into it. And, increasingly, Reform Judaism sees the matter the same way. In fact, 25% of Israeli Jews say patrilineal descent is enough. “Reform Judaism accepts a child… as Jewish without a formal conversion if he attends a Jewish school and follows a course of study leading to confirmation.”
But, as indicated above, the problem does not just concern an individual's belief system, it also concerns his actions. Jews cannot define Judaism according to action for a very simple reason. From Abraham through the destruction of the First Temple, Jews always performed ritual liturgical sacrifice. But the Temple was destroyed in 586 BC, rebuilt in 516 BC, then destroyed for the second time in 70 AD and never rebuilt.
As a result, because they do not have a Temple, Jews have not performed sacrifice for nearly two millennia. Synagogues were only created after the destruction of the First Temple, probably around the 3rd or 4th century BC. The rabbinical system probably started around the 2nd century AD, after the destruction of the Second Temple. Neither Abraham, nor Isaac nor Jacob, nor any of their progeny up through the 4th century BC had ever heard of a rabbi or a synagogue. The synagogue-rabbi system was invented out of whole cloth in order to deal with the loss of the First Temple and the exile to Babylon. This system has persisted for nearly two millennia because of the loss of the Second Temple in the 1st century (70 AD), but only for Jews who came from the Babylonian Exile. Jews who departed Israel prior to that event, such as the Ethiopian and Cochin Jewish communities, and who therefore never lived in Babylon, do not recognize rabbis. The Ethiopians do not use synagogues, Cochin Jewish use of the synagogue was very late, no more than 400 years old.
But even if we were to grant an older provenance to these fabricated social structures, the problems do not end. For instance, it is quite clear the original rabbinic system from the 2nd century AD had no place for women rabbis, no place for homosexual activity, no place for atheism at all. But the modern rabbi-synagogue permutations accept all of these things. The ancient Hebrew faith insisted on the mikveh and circumcision, but modern Reform Judaism does not. The loss of liturgical sacrifice and Temple worship, the addition of rabbis, synagogues, women rabbis, homosexual activity and atheism, the discarding of the mikveh and circumcision, all attest to a single fact: clearly, no Jew today does what any of Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob's sons did for the first millennium of Hebrew faith.
And if we grant all of this, it gets worse still. If we restrict our understanding of who is Jewish just to the religious elements listed in the previous paragraphs, even the Jewish faith is disappearing. Religious Jews, both in Israel and the US, are increasingly abandoning their faith, with more than half of children in Orthodox families simply walking away.
94 percent say a person is Jewish even if they work on Shabbat, 89 percent say a Jew can be strongly critical of Israel, and 68 percent say Jews don’t have to believe in God, but an astonishing 34 percent say a person is still Jewish even if they decide to believe in Jesus as the messiah.
In fact, for most Jews, their relationships with their pets matter more than their relationship with God:
Religion is not central to the lives of most U.S. Jews. Even Jews by religion are much less likely than Christian adults to consider religion to be very important in their lives (28% vs. 57%). And among Jews as a whole, far more report that they find meaning in spending time with their families or friends, engaging with arts and literature, being outdoors, and pursuing their education or careers than find meaning in their religious faith. Twice as many Jewish Americans say they derive a great deal of meaning and fulfillment from spending time with pets as say the same about their religion.
So, being Jewish has nothing to do with anything specifically Jewish. Being liberal is sufficient to "be Jewish":
For the non-Orthodox, though, the top slots went to remembering the Holocaust, leading an ethical and moral life, working for justice and equality, and being intellectually curious. These last two, especially, identify Judaism with liberal values of intellectual independence and commitment to social justice.
Consequently, the number of irreligious Jews is growing:
While the Orthodox appear to be proportionally growing, Pew found even more Jews becoming more secular and unaffiliated. “Jews of no religion” — Pew’s term for people who identify as Jews and do things they see as Jewish but do not identify with the religious parts — in 2020 made up 27 percent of all U.S. Jews, up from 22 percent in 2013.
LARPing as Culture
So, given that Judaism is not based on belief, Judaism is not based on activity, Judaism is not based on genetics, and Judaism is not based on a genetically demonstrable tribal membership... what does it mean to claim that one is Jewish? It's not clear that the claim means anything at all. It would seem today's Jews are primarily made up of 21st century socialists who like to LARP as a group of ancient monotheists. Some people dress up and LARP being Civil War soldiers, others LARP being Vikings. Today's "Jews" like to LARP being ancient monotheists. But they only LARP the pieces of monotheism they like, and they leave the rest out. As we have seen, most "Jews" substitute medieval commentary (rabbinical Talmudic commentary) for the mess and fuss of animal sacrifice on a bloody altar. Modern "Jews" replace rabbis with women. They replace belief in God with national socialism or atheism. They replace circumcision with... well... nothingness. Action, belief, genetics - every bit of turns out to be unnecessary to modern Judaism. Since at least the invention of Reform and Conservative Judaism in the late 1800s, there has been literally nothing left to distinguish a Jew from a non-Jew except an arbitrary, unprovable claim.
In this sense, modern Judaism is not very different from Gerald Gardner's 1950's pretended "revival" of Wicca. Gardner famously invented artificial liturgy and rituals to justify his lifestyle, then attributed his ritualistic inventions to an ancient religious system (Wicca) of which he had no knowledge and to which he had no real connection. A similar dynamic seems to constitute modern Judaism. Instead of a 1950's Gardner, the "Jews" have two ancient Gardner prototypes: one group inventing both the rabbi-Talmud system in the first century or so after Christ's death, and the synagogue system in the century or so preceding Christ's birth, while a other groups invented Torah-based non-Talmudic systems like the Karaites, around 500-700 AD, or the Ethiopian Jews who may have originated anywhere from the time of Moses to somewhere in the first century AD, but who trace their Jewish lineage by the Torah-approved patrilineal descent, not by the rabbi-inspired Talmudic matrilineal descent.
And this multiple splintering left no central authority, no group or person who can definitively determine who is or is not a Jew. There is no universally agreed upon test for who is or is not a Jew. Distinguishing a "Jew" from a "gentile" is apparently like distinguishing pornography from art: we are supposed to know it when we see it. This is, perhaps, why so many Jews support the transgender movement and the LGBTQ+ system - it is similarly self-referential LARPing by people who desperately want an identity that will allow them to distinguish themselves from the rest of the world.
The irony is that, due to this complete lack of coherence, a Jew can actually profess the Shahada without fear of being cast out from "his" extremely ill-defined group. As Rambam points out, Jews who recite the Shahada, the Muslim testimony of faith, are still Jews. The Shahadah is but a meaningless phrase used by a religion (Islam) that is not considered by the Jews to be idolatrous. In comparison, most Jews tend to agree that belief in Christ is idolatrous, and therefore prohibited.
But there's nothing in particular in the Islamic profession of faith that violates Jewish faith. As one Jew stated, "Personally, I am quite happy to say the shahadah in full sincerity but in the belief that prophet Muhammad was a gentile prophet and that Judaism and İslam can coexist as two approaches to the same truth. At the core, our religion is the same and I have no issue with İslamic claims to that effect."
Rabbi Fayyumi, who influenced Maimonedes, held a very positive opinion of the Koran:
"He analyzes the words of the Koran carefully, to such an extent that in the second chapter of his book he finds mystical meaning in the Shahada (the Muslim declaration of faith).
A substantial part of the sixth chapter of Fayyumi’s book is dedicated to analysis and interpretation of the Koran. He concludes from this analysis that Islam is not directed to the Jewish people; rather, it is intended to provide religion and faith to the nations. Its purpose is not to abolish the Torah―just the opposite: the Koran confirms the obligation of the Jewish people to keep the Torah. At the same time, Fayyumi asserts that the Koran teaches that there are additional revelations to other nations, revelations that obligate them to their own religious systems."
- It isn't theological belief. You can be an atheist and be a Jew.
- It isn't belief in rabbis, synagogues or the Talmud. Ethiopian Jews don't accept any of those things.
- It isn't matrilineal descent. Ethiopian and Cochin Jews trace their own lines via patrilineal descent, not matrilineal descent. Matrilineal descent is a post-Christian invention.
- It isn't circumcision. Reform Jews don't require circumcision in order to be a Reform Jew. Muslims require circumcision of both men and women. Does that mean Muslims are actually Jews? Or are Muslims more Jewish than Reform Jews?
- It isn't DNA. There is no DNA test that distinguishes a Jew from a non-Jew.
- None of the "Jews" in the last 2000 years have offered sacrifice in the Temple.
- No "Jew" in the last 2000 years does or believes any of the things Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did and believed.
- There is no correspondence between modern "Jewish" belief or practice vs pre-Christian Jewish belief and practice.
15 comments:
Jews are basically an ethnic group with a shared sense of history and heritage. This does not rule out genetic variability, since Gentiles have sometimes married into this ethnic group. This will tend to dilute the gene pool, but that doesn't negate the fact that Jews still possess a shared sense of history and heritage.
Genetics is a fairly new discovery, yet human tribal affiliation is ancient. Peoples of ancient times would not have expressed their geneology in terms of genetics. The Israelites of old would not have claimed to be carrying Abraham's DNA, since they knew nothing of DNA. In fact, DNA dilutes quickly; except for his Y chromosome, a man likely has no DNA from his fifth great grandfather up his paternal line, and could have none whatsoever from some other ancestors of that generation. Yet he is still descended from them, genealogically speaking.
Even so, the Jewish people as a whole are genealogically descended from Abraham, with some intermarriage along the way (we see it even in Scripture: Rahab, Ruth, etc). Yet they share a sense of descent from Abraham and a connection to Jews throughout history. Over time they have divided into different groups, yet they still look to their origins as recorded in the Old Testament. They have symbolically re-enacted, once a year, their ancestors' liberation from slavery in Egypt, which occurred over three millennia ago. That's what the Passover Seder is; they even say that they participate in the Exodus with their ancestors every time the celebrate it. Even many secular Jews have Passover Seders, focusing on Jewish heritage and civilization rather than God. It's that kind of thing that binds them together, despite differences in religion, belief in God, etc.
BTW, if all the Jews just recite the Shahadah, Muslims won't then leave them alone. They will expect them to embrace Islam, to be Muslims now instead of Jews. A Coptic Catholic friend once told me that some poor Copts in Egypt, unable to pay the tax to remain Christian, decided to convert outwardly yet remain Christian in their hearts. This didn't work so well, however, since their children were then educated in madrassas and surrounded by a Muslim culture, so in a few generations their descendants were fully Islamized. The same would happen to Jews if they became Muslim.
And many Jews don't want to abandon Judaism. They have a strong sense of Jewish history and heritage that they want to continue forever, not see it die out. That's a big reason why many Jews resist converting to Christianity; they see it as bringing about the death of their Jewish heritage and assimilation into the Gentile world.
"Jews are basically an ethnic group with a shared sense of history and heritage."
But that obviously isn't true. Sephardic, Mizhraic and Ashkenazi Jews are not one ethnic group, they are several ethnic groups. And that isn't even counting Indian Jews, South African Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc.
They don't have a shared sense of history and heritage. Ethiopian Jews don't even recognize the authority of rabbis or the Talmud. It isn't circumcision because "Our faith does not depend upon circumcision but upon the heart. One [i.e., a prospective proselyte] who does not believe sincerely is not considered a Jew even though he is circumcised. But one who believes sincerely is a full Jew even if he is not circumcised....
we find among the members of Reform congregations certain Jews who are avowed atheists or agnostics, we should not hesitate to accept a convert who falls into either category. It is true that some Jews experience crises of faith. We acknowledge the reality of the spiritual journey and struggle our brothers and sisters endure, and they remain part of us as long as they do not abandon our people or join another religion. However, that flexibility is reserved for those who are already “citizens,” who already belong."
https://www.ccarnet.org/ccar-responsa/tfn-no-5754-15-147-152/
So, if one of the parents was Jewish, preferably the mother, then the person can be an atheist their entire life, but still be a Jew. That's not a shared heritage.
There is no evidence of lineage from Abraham. The Ethiopians accept patrilineal descent, the rabbinic groups only accept matrilineal descent, the entire line of descent was lost during both the Egyptian captivity and the Babylonian captivity, we don't have Abraham's body to do DNA testing with, the whole geneology is a farce.
Even the Muslims claim descent from Abraham, and they share about as much culture and heritage, so does that make all Muslims Jewish?
Jews don't recognize Jews who recite the Shahadah as being Muslim. It's a geneology and shared heritage thing, according to you. So even if they practiced Islam, according to the rabbis, they wouldn't stop being Jews, according to Jewish theology.
Their shared sense of history and heritage goes back to the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament. Not the Talmud, not the post-Temple rabbinate, not the various modern subdivisions of Judaism (Reconstructionist, Reform, etc). Those things are too new. Judaism is a very old faith, somewhere between 3500-4000 years old. You have to look back to its beginning to find the shared history and heritage of the Jewish people, not anything that has arisen since the destruction of the Temple nearly two millennia ago.
Yes, the ethnic group has subdivided over those millennia. In large part because of dispersion after the aforementioned fall of the Temple and marriage to Gentile converts to Judaism in their new lands. Yet the Jewish people have long carried with them the knowledge that they descended from Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The memory that they were once slaves in Egypt, but now are free, has been reenacted every year at Passover in countless Jewish households to keep it alive. They believed that God had chosen them and given them the Torah, which set them apart from the nations. Despite all the changes over time, they still hold this common memory going back to the roots of their faith. Even those who no longer hold that faith, like secular Jews or converts to other religions, may feel a certain nostalgic attachment to it due to their upbringing.
As I said above, DNA testing is irrelevant past a certain number of generations. So having Abraham's body would prove nothing. It is the collective memory of the Jewish people that confirms their ultimate descent from him, not withstanding intermarriage with Gentiles that we can even see in happening in the Old Testament itself (Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, etc). If you don't believe or trust the collective memory of the Jewish people in this regard, are you accusing them of lying?
Yes, Muslims claim descent from Abraham, but through Ishmael, not Isaac. Hence they are not Jewish. As for Jews who convert to Islam, they would likely be considered Jewish by ethnicity but not religion. Over time, that would be lost through intermarriage with Muslims.
Now, I will concede that, in modern times, the memory and affinity that has long united the Jewish people may be getting diluted, especially in the West and particularly the United States. One of the things that has preserved the people over the centuries was endogamy. They were only supposed to marry other Jews, including converts to Judaism. That enabled them to carry on their heritage despite dispersion and two millennia of changes. As long as they kept themselves separate from the larger non-Jewish population, they survived.
Nowadays, especially in the West, intermarriage with non-convert Gentiles is becoming more common. I’ve heard some Jews express chagrin over the effect this is having on their community. The children of such unions will at best have a dual heritage, half-Jewish and half-Gentile, and the next generation may retain no sense of Jewish heritage at all. There is a concern that this will be detrimental in the long run, at least for those Jews who assimilate with the modern world.
If anything threatens the continuation of the Jewish people, it is assimilation and particularly intermarriage with the larger Gentile population. One could argue that the Reform and Reconstructionist branches have already partially assimilated with the modern zeitgeist. So looking at them and saying, "See, some Jews don't even believe in God!" is not a strong argument against Jewish identity. Those groups are already fraying on the edges due to assimilation and intermarriage. It would be better to look to more solid Jewish communities like the Orthodox Jews.
"Their shared sense of history and heritage goes back to the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament."
Are you talking about Muslims? Because Muslims would say that this argument is about them. From the Muslim perspective, every OT patriarch from Adam onward was Muslim. The Jews were heretics who twisted Allah's clear commandments.
The Muslims - who claim their history is older than even Abraham, because it goes all the way back to Adam, tell us that the Temple never existed, at least not on the Temple Mount.
As for Jews, they are considered Jewish by the presence of the "holy spark". Religion doesn't enter into it at all. Belief doesn't enter into it at all. Ethnicity has nothing at all to do with it. If you read the link below, I reference Rabbi Steinsalz, considered one of the foremost rabbinic authorities of the 20th century.
https://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2019/12/are-gentiles-human.html
Among the Ashkenazi, children of half-marriages are either considered barely human (if the mother was not Jewish) or conceived by parthogenesis (if the mother was Jewish).
None of the people who claim to be Jews today would be recognized as Jews by Paul. The Orthodox Jewish community you reference has called Ahmadinejad “a light to the nations”, and said he was “exemplary” in his recognition of what Zionism really is. They gladly met with and celebrated the Butcher of Tehran. These Orthodox Jews hate, hate, hate Israel.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2281587
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Every sentence you type reveals an abiding ignorance of what Judaism actually teaches and believes.
No, I am not referring to the Muslims. They didn't exist prior to the 7th century AD, while the Jews did. I don't care what Muslims claim; the Old Testament was written by Israelites (under Divine inspiration) and predates the Quran (which is not inspired) by many centuries. Why even bring up such an irrelevancy?
There have been differing opinions among Jews with regard to Gentiles over time. Even the quotes you give sometimes present an opposing point of view, like one of the first ones where AJC Executive Director David Harris contradicts Sephardi leader Yosef:
"Rabbi Yosef’s remarks — suggesting outrageously that Jewish scripture asserts non-Jews exist to serve Jews — are abhorrent and an offense to human dignity and human equality,” said AJC Executive Director David Harris. "Judaism first taught the world that all individuals are created in the divine image, which helped form the basis of our moral code. A rabbi should be the first, not the last, to reflect that bedrock teaching of our tradition."
There's a Jewish person asserting that all humans are equally created in God's image, and calling that a "bedrock teaching of our tradition." You will find differing opinions among Jews, as you will among Catholics. If you want to amplify every negative thing a Jewish person says, that's no better than an anti-Catholic quoting the worst things that reactionary Catholic trads say and then claiming that all Catholics believe that.
As for the second link, Neturei Karta does not represent all Orthodox Jews. They are a fringe group that believes that Israel is an illegitimate nation because only the Messiah can re-establish Israel. Not all Orthodox Jews agree with them. Jews are not a monolith; they hold different opinions amongst themselves, like any other group of human beings.
How do you know when Jews existed?
You would have to have a definition of who is a Jew that includes everyone who claims to be a Jew, but excludes everyone who does not make that claim.
So, tell me, what is the definition of who a Jew is? I'm interested in seeing this, because even Pew Research admits that they don't know who is Jewish and who isn't.
How do we know Rabbi Yosef's remarks are outrageous? Maybe David Harris is not a Jew. There is no definition, and no authority who can produce and enforce a definition. So when Harris speaks to "our tradition", Whose tradition would that be? Why should I believe David Harris over Rabbi Yosef, or vice versa, for that matter?
How do I know Neturei Karta does not represent all Orthodox Jews? Who gets to define which person is truly an Orthodox Jew and which person isn't? Mormons claim they are Christians, but most Christians (including the Catholic Church) denies that they are.
The Catholics can claim final authority in the Pope, but most other Christians don't accept the Pope's authority or definitions, and Judaism doesn't even HAVE a Pope. Furthermore, the Catholic Church has never defined who is a Jew and who isn't, so ... who gets to make that definition?
You????
Seriously?
I know when Jews existed because Sacred Scripture tells us that Jews existed well prior to the 7th century AD. The word "Jew" was used in both the Old and New Testament, so I know Jews existed back then.
As I stated above, Jewish people in general genealogically descend from Abraham (with some allowance for intermarriage with converts to Judaism) and have passed down a shared sense of history and heritage going back to the ancient Hebrews. Forget DNA, that dissipates over the generations. What long bound the Jewish people together as a people was this shared heritage, a faith with strictures that kept them separate from other cultures, and endogamy. This has been fraying at the edges in more recent times, due to intermarriage, secularization, and the like. This fraying is the basis for the confusion you cite. Some are losing touch with their connection to the Jewish community, yet they still identify as Jews. Believe me, I understand the confusion, but it doesn't negate the fact that there is, at the core, a Jewish identity, to which Jewish people adhere in varying degrees, some more firmly than others.
How do you know Rabbi Yosef's remarks aren't outrageous? Maybe David Harris is a Jew. Two can play at that casting doubt game. It's all rhetoric.
The overall point I'm making is that Jewish people hold different views re. Gentiles. Some are bigoted against them, some are not. The same way some white people are bigoted against black people while others are not. Like any group of human beings, Jews have differing opinions about things. They don't all think, speak and act in lock step.
There's actually a saying among them: "Two Jews, three opinions." Meaning Jews very often disagree with each other; so much so that it's become an adage.
You can know that Neturei Karta does not represent all Orthodox Jews by listening to other Orthodox Jews who are not part of Neturei Karta and who support Israel. There are many different Orthodox Jewish sects/movements: Satmar, Lubavich, Bratslavers, Modern Orthodox, etc. They don't all agree with each other on everything.
You can know that they are Orthodox Jews because they practice the strictest observance of Judaism (frum), to a greater extent than non-Orthodox Jews. They are like the traditionalists of Judaism.
As for my bona fides, though I am not Jewish I have lived in NYC most of my life. I've met and known many Jews from different aspects of Judaism: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Secular and even Messianic Jews (who are controversial within the Jewish community). They've been my friends and acquaintances, teachers, classmates, bosses, co-workers, neighbors and even relatives; two of my uncles married Jewish women so I had two aunts who were Jewish, God rest their souls (one converted to Catholicism after marrying, I'm not sure about the other). I've talked to Jewish people and learned about their faith from them. I've also studied comparative religions both on my own and in college and learned more about Judaism from that. I took a course on the Hebrew Scriptures in college taught by a female Reform rabbi, and I learned even more from her and other classmates who were Jewish.
So I'm not making all this up as I go along. I do actually know what I'm talking about because I've talked to actual Jews during my life. I didn't get all my knowledge of Judaism from a few websites. And although I disagree with many Jews re. Jesus' Messiahship, I don't have an animus toward them. I'm willing to listen to them, even in their various opinions, and try to understand.
The New Testament was written BEFORE the Second Temple was destroyed. The one book which refers to post-Second-Temple Jews has this to say about them:
Revelation 2:9
"“‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.
Wow - it's almost like the destruction of the Second Temple caused Judaism to disappear. Huh.
"Wow - it's almost like the destruction of the Second Temple caused Judaism to disappear. Huh."
Steve my Wife told me reluctantly about your nonsense(likely because she fears for my blood pressure) but I got it out of her and never have I read more brain dead stupidity & I read New Atheists and anti-Catholic Fundamentalists and Radtrads and somehow you top them all? Freaking amazing!
First you don't address any my wife's points you just go off on a tangent & plead ad hoc skepticism.."How do I know this..How do I know that?" LAME! Richard Dawkins at least did it with style and a cool accent even if it was cringe
Very well. Let us deal with your nonsense.
The term "synagogue of Satan" was actually used in Jewish literature contemporary to the NT by JEWS to describe other sectarian Jews. In the context of Revelation if you bothered to read the Second Century Church Father Ignatius of Antioch for example you would ken there where Churches of Judaizing sects made up of Gentiles who taught Gnosticism and Judaism. Hence the words "say they are Jews BUT ARE NOT"
Ignatius as I recall said "Tis better to hear the Gospel from one who is Circumcised than Judaism from one who is not." This indicates Ethnic Jews where still a thing as they are right up too today.
So I am not sure how you get this Judaism is suppose to disappear nonsense?
First if there are no Jews or Judaism then explain how they, the Jews, are all going to convert to Christ before the end if they no longer exist b4 that as is taught unanimously by all the Church Fathers and clearly taught in Roman 11?
Or are you channeling Bob Sungenis' lunatic neo Calvinist view that Romans 11 is not fore telling the conversion of the Jews to the Church before the end?
One cannot accuse that holocaust denying clown of Traditionalism.
If the Jews are going to one day convert in mass they must by definition exist!
Also yer weird obsession with DNA shows what Fr Stanley Jaki once decried as the errors of a Concordant interpretation of Holy Writ. Reading contemporary science into archaic texts. WRONG! Descent is not just DNA. With the exception of Mitochondrial DNA from your Mum and her Mum and the Y Chromosome from yer Dad DNA goes extinct over time. Enough of your DNA nonsense.
Oyi dinnae make me go the full Scottish mate.
James Scott Husband of Rosemarie aka Mystic Rose also known as
Yachov Ben Yachov
Away ye go.
"Wow - it's almost like the destruction of the Second Temple caused Judaism to disappear. Huh."
Steve my Wife told me reluctantly about your nonsense(likely because she fears for my blood pressure) but I got it out of her and never have I read more brain dead stupidity & I read New Atheists and anti-Catholic Fundamentalists and Radtrads and somehow you top them all? Freaking amazing!
First you don't address any my wife's points you just go off on a tangent & plead ad hoc skepticism.."How do I know this..How do I know that?" LAME! Richard Dawkins at least did it with style and a cool accent even if it was cringe
Very well. Let us deal with your nonsense.
The term "synagogue of Satan" was actually used in Jewish literature contemporary to the NT by JEWS to describe other sectarian Jews. In the context of Revelation if you bothered to read the Second Century Church Father Ignatius of Antioch for example you would ken there where Churches of Judaizing sects made up of Gentiles who taught Gnosticism and Judaism. Hence the words "say they are Jews BUT ARE NOT"
Ignatius as I recall said "Tis better to hear the Gospel from one who is Circumcised than Judaism from one who is not." This indicates Ethnic Jews where still a thing as they are right up too today.
So I am not sure how you get this Judaism is suppose to disappear nonsense?
First if there are no Jews or Judaism then explain how they, the Jews, are all going to convert to Christ before the end if they no longer exist b4 that as is taught unanimously by all the Church Fathers and clearly taught in Roman 11?
Or are you channeling Bob Sungenis' lunatic neo Calvinist view that Romans 11 is not fore telling the conversion of the Jews to the Church before the end?
One cannot accuse that holocaust denying clown of Traditionalism.
If the Jews are going to one day convert in mass they must by definition exist!
Also yer weird obsession with DNA shows what Fr Stanley Jaki once decried as the errors of a Concordant interpretation of Holy Writ. Reading contemporary science into archaic texts. WRONG! Descent is not just DNA. With the exception of Mitochondrial DNA from your Mum and her Mum and the Y Chromosome from yer Dad DNA goes extinct over time. Enough of your DNA nonsense.
Oyi dinnae make me go the full Scottish mate.
James Scott Husband of Rosemarie aka Mystic Rose also known as
Yachov Ben Yachov
Away ye go.
Well, it would be convenient for you, if anything you said was relevant to the problem. Sadly, none of it is.
The Israeli rabbis are doing the DNA testing to verify Jewishness, and you call me obsessed because I point out that their DNA testing isn't going to work.
A large proportion of Jews are not circumcised today, so Ignatius' commentary is not really relevant.
What do you call a Catholic who was baptized, but has not attended Mass, ever, or received any other sacrament, nor learned any of the things Catholics learn? Not only did he not learn anything about Catholic faith, he started practicing Hinduism. Sure, he's a Catholic by his baptism, but he is not a Catholic in any meaningful sense beyond that.
Once the Temple was destroyed, Jews were put into that position, only a lot worse. None of them have participated in Temple liturgy in 2000 years. They invented an entire rabbi-Talmud system that has no relevance to anything that existed while the Temple was up.
And THAT assumes the Second Temple was valid. As the rabbis themselves point out, the First Temple was commanded by God, but the Second Temple wasn't. The Second Temple was missing essentially every mark of holiness that existed in the First Temple.
"These are the five differences between the First Temple and the Second Temple, namely: the ark, kaporet, and the keruvim [Rashi: these are all one thing, the Shekhina not residing there]; fire; the Shekhina; the holy spirit [Rashi: the holy spirit did not fall upon the prophets from the second year of Daryavesh on], and the urim ve-tumim. (Yoma 21b)[2]"
The current crop of people who take the ancient name "Judaism" bear no resemblance to the Judaism of Jesus and Paul, and Second Temple Judaism (which saw only one tribe) arguably bore little resemblance to First Temple Judaism (which had all twelve tribes).
There are no Jews, in any first century sense, left.
Every person the New Testament referred to as Jews were Second Temple Jews. They all disappeared by 150 AD. All of them.
>There are no Jews, in any first century sense, left.
There are no Catholics in the first century sense either. But there are 21 century Catholics and Jews. That is a trivial objection.
Jews are a religion and a people and they existed as Jews before there was a Temple and between Temples. They have reverted back to the Non Temple Judaism of the Synagogue that existed between temples and will remain in it till their Mass conversion foretold by St Paul in Romans 11 and taught unanimously by the Church Fathers.
Yer claim is mental, Self evidently false and contradicts Scripture, Tradition and the teachings of the Church. It contradicts the Fathers and Doctors.
Thus it is beyond wrong.
If there are no Jews then why did all the Popes haver on about them for the past 2000 years? Either to criticize them for not confessing Jesus. BS havering over the Talmud. Or issuing decrees protecting them or expelling them or to denounce false accusations they drank the blood of Christian Children.
Show me one Pope who said there have been no Jews in existence since the 2nd century, They all spoke of then existing in their time.
Sorry Stever this is all just mental. I'll leave you to my wife and her infinite patience. I have none for this raw silly nonsense.
"There are no Catholics in the first century sense either."
So, you've just said that there is no Catholic Church.
I pointed out that the Jews lost their liturgy. You respond by saying, essentially, that the Catholic sacraments of the first century are not the same as the sacraments we have today. Because if that is NOT what you mean, then your statement is false.
The Temple sacrifices and circumcision were the heart of Judaism, just like the sacraments are the heart of Catholicism. Can you have a Catholic Church without ANY sacraments? That is absurd. But that is where Judaism is - it has no Temple sacrifices, and many groups have substantially stopped doing circumcision.
As you have already pointed out, if there are no Jews, then the major prophecy of the Church concerning the conversion of the Jews cannot be fulfilled.
We have no way of knowing who is Jewish and who isn't. There is no over-arching authority capable of making that determination among the Jews themselves, and the Church has never attempted to define who is Jewish and who isn't. So, we don't KNOW any Jews are left. Even the Jews themselves cannot define it.
Steve your arguments get more mental and weird.
>So, you've just said that there is no Catholic Church.
Your straw-man argument is tedious. I said no such thing. Yer fallacies of equivocation are not impressive or persuasive. Neither is your ambiguity. Geez, James White even with the Cancer eating him up right now(God have Mercy on him) would give me a more coherent argument. Yer disappointing. Very disappointing.
>The Temple sacrifices and circumcision were the heart of Judaism.
But they still circumcise and by your lame argument that means Judaism ceased to exist between the two Temples which is absurd. So no Jews existed in the Babylonian Captivity after the first temple was obliterated? Yer mental.
>Can you have a Catholic Church without ANY sacraments?
You can have Catholics. In Japan they existed for two centuries with just Baptism till missionaries returned to restore their Church. They had a rudimentary understanding of doctrine as do modern Jews who know the teachings of their fathers.
>. But that is where Judaism is - it has no Temple sacrifices, and many groups have substantially stopped doing circumcision.
Yer silly argument might have force if ALL JEWS EVERYWHERE stopped doing circumcision. But they didn't and they passed down the Judaism of the Synagogue that they reverted too. Rabbinic Judaism comes from that as it came from the Pharisees who according to Jesus succeeded Moses. Not Jewish Priests, not the Sadducees the Pharisees.
After all Romans 11 foretells their mass conversion. God is not a liar.
>As you have already pointed out, if there are no Jews, then the major prophecy of the Church concerning the conversion of the Jews cannot be fulfilled.
So I can either believe a Fringe Blogger who straw-mans and makes lame arguments or I can listen to the Church the God Man Jesus Christ founded & His servant St Paul?
Who do you think I am gonna choose Steve? It's not rocket science.
>We have no way of knowing who is Jewish and who isn't.
Which is as absurd a Claim as saying we dinnae ken who is Scottish? Or English? Or Irish? Or a wee thieving Gypsy? Or Bulgarian? Jews existed objectively as a group and as a dispersed but identifiable nation for 2000 years since the destruction of the Temple and Their Homeland. That is pretty remarkable. That is Divine Providence.
Jewish groups are all over the world. It is as plain as a Bulgarian Pin up!!!
>and the Church has never attempted to define who is Jewish and who isn't. So, we don't KNOW any Jews are left. Even the Jews themselves cannot define it.
So in 1593 when Pope Clement VIII expels the Jews living in all the papal states, except Rome, Avignon and Ancona you are saying people looked at him funny and said "What are these imaginary mystical creatures you speak of your Holiness? They don't exist! You might as well have said you expelled Elves from the Papal States!"?
Really Steve. This is silly. What Pope backs your insane and 100% novel thesis that Jews don't exist? It would be impossible for that to be the case based on the TON of Papal writings, decrees and such dealing with Jews. Wither to screw them over by throwing them out of their homes or defend them from idiots who try to steal their stuff or forcibly convert them or falsely accuse them of drinking Christian blood at Pasach or Pope St John Paul II saying they are our Elder Brothers?
That is all imaginary?
Steve this weird thought experiment of yours resembles Flat Earth Arguments. They pivot to the point where they are unjustifiable and absurd.
PS True story. My daughters and I where out in Bensonhurst looking for my wife and Son who went to the doctor. I couldn't find the Doctor's office but I was helped by a lovely & kind Orthodox Jewish woman. I guess I imagined her? Who knew?
Steve U need help son......
Shalom.
Pax Christi.
Dude, many people who claim to be Jews do not circumcise.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/well/family/cutting-out-the-bris.html
I asked about being a Catholic without ANY sacraments - not even baptism. Judaism claims you can be a Jew without even circumcision. You are Jewish because one of your parents are Jewish (either mother or father, depending on sect), regardless of anything else. REGARDLESS of ANYTHING else. The hidden Japanese had baptism.
St. Paul never saw a Jew who did not perform Temple sacrifice.
If Jews exist objectively as a group, then you can do something even Pew Research and Jews themselves cannot do: go ahead and give me a definition of who is Jewish that includes everyone who currently calls themselves Jewish and excludes everyone who does not.
The rabbi-Talmud-synagogue system was invented long AFTER the Temple was destroyed and it is not universally accepted. Ask Britannica.
https://britannica.com/topic/Talmud
I am saying the Church kept the image of Jews alive because no one could afford to admit that Jews had essentially disappeared. All the "Jews" had to be converted - that was in Scripture. If there weren't any, then Scripture was wrong. Just as the early Christians thought Jesus would return during their own personal lifetimes, so the Jews had to be kept alive, and both for the same reason: Scripture prophesied it.
When the Temple was destroyed AND the Jews disappeared AND Jesus didn't return, the next generations had to spiritualize EVERYTHING. The rabbi-Talmud-synagogue system HAD to be accepted as a replacement to the real (extinct) Jews, because what else were they going to do? They honestly believed.
So, the return of Jesus HAD to be spiritualized and explained away because... what else were they going to do? The JWs did the same thing when Jesus didn't come back in the 1890s, as JW prophesy had foretold - they spiritualized His "return" and said it was just him moving from one heavenly area to another.
Mormons call themselves Christians, but that doesn't mean they are. The Wiccans assert they have reclaimed ancient witchcraft, but they have not. They are fooling themselves. Today, a group of people LARP as ancient monotheists and call themselves Jews, but they aren't, not in the first century or Scriptural sense, whether you are talking about OT or NT, it doesn't matter. Today's Jews are not the Biblical Jews, just like the modern state of Israel has zero connection to the ancient, Biblical state.
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