Catholics always talk about the OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, but Jews tend to emphasize the prophecies Jesus did not fulfill. From the Jewish perspective, if an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah. What objections do they raise? Here are a selection:
Old Testament Silence on the Second Coming
Nowhere in the Old Testament is there a hint of the Messiah's Second Coming. As the Jews point out:
"Where did you get this idea of a ‘Second Coming’? Was it because Jesus did not succeed the first time that he needs another try? The Bible doesn’t say anything about the Messiah coming twice.”
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill all Old Testament in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the OT Scripture no concept of a second coming exists.
According to Jewish commentary, the Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2). Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BC. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after Jewish prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.
So, why do Christians insist on the Second Coming? First, because Jesus insisted on it. The Gospels show Him speaking of His return again and again. And second, because the OT prophecies listed below are obviously not yet fulfilled. For instance, while the Gospels do not show Jesus Himself saying He would usher in a period of everlasting peace, his disciples taught that He would do that.
Unfulfilled Prophecies: Universal Peace
In Isaiah 11:1-9, we see prophecies about the coming Messiah, some of which were fulfilled in Yeshua, but some have not been fulfilled yet. We don’t yet see any of these things happening:
- The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
The verses in Micah 4:1-3 are also clear prophecies about the coming Messiah, and they tell of a universal peace that has not yet manifested. Yet the Messiah was supposed to end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) The argument then is: if Jesus was the Messiah, why isn’t there world peace? Many Jewish People who are still waiting expectantly for the Messiah are expecting a Messiah who will bring world peace.
Unfulfilled Prophecies: Restoration of Israel and Temple
The Messiah is supposed to build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’
The Messiah will gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
Unfulfilled Prophecies: Torah Observance
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
Throughout the Christian "New Testament," Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
Unfulfilled Prophecies: Not a Descendent of David
Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David.
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
Inaccurate Prophecy: Suffering Servant
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”
Jews read Isaiah 53 as a follow-up on the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. They argue the prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. In Isaiah 41:8, Israel is called the "Servant of God." In fact, Isaiah the Jews claim that Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. Thus, for them, Isaiah 53 describes the sufferings of the nation of Israel.
Unfulfilled Prophecies: David's Line Failed
Jeremiah 33:17 is, of course, the most problematic of the prophecies. If we take this prophecy at face value, Judaism failed at least a half a millennium before Jesus ever arrives on the scene:
"For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'"
The prophecy obviously failed before the Old Testament period ended. The destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC brought an end to the rule of the royal house of David. Even if we agree that Jesus is of the line of David, there is a half a millennium gap that Jeremiah and Sacred Scripture, the God-breathed Word, got wrong.
For at least 500 years, five centuries, 25 generations, there was no descendant of David sitting on the throne of Israel, nor any nation of Israel upon whose throne such a descendant could have sat. Not only did the line of David fail, the Temple failed, the Levitical priesthood failed, and the entire nation of Israel failed. It disappeared off the map of history, and arguably never came back.
From the Babylonian Captivity forward, the majority of Jews have never again lived in the land of Israel. Even today, as of September, 2021, among the global Jewish population, the number of Jews in Israel is close to 6.9 million, while about 8.3 million live outside Israel (including around 6 million in the United States). The current nation that claims the name Israel is established as a primarily secular state, it is not a monarchy. Many ultra-orthodox Jews actually oppose the existence of Israel precisely because it fulfills no Scriptural mandate. They consider the current nation of Israel to be a fake. To them, it is an anti-Messianic abomination. These Jews want Israel to be destroyed.
Just 20 years after Jeremiah makes this prophecy, the first Temple was destroyed. Sure, it got re-built 70 years later, but that's a 70-year interregnum. Then, once it got re-built, the Second Temple got destroyed in 70 AD. The Levitical priests haven't offered burnt animal or burnt grain sacrifice in two millennia.
Worse, the priesthood of liturgical Christians is of the order of Melchizedek, NOT the order of Leviticus. Christians cannot claim the Mass fulfills the prophecy because (a) Christians claim the wrong priesthood, (b) Christians don't make any burnt offerings at all and (c) even if the first two problems could be cleared up, that still doesn't solve the problem of the 70-year interregnum between the first and second Temples.
If prophecy is a point of contention, then neither the Jews nor the Christians have a solid response to the several hundred year interregnum when David's royal line most certainly DID fail. Neither one has a solid response to the failure of the Levitical priesthood. Jeremiah was absolutely, incontrovertibly wrong in at least two different ways.
If you want to say the Word of God is eternal and valid forever, as Pope Benedict claimed, then that's a problem.
12 comments:
> From the Jewish perspective, if an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Technically that is not true. The OT says the Messiah will come to Jerusalem riding a colt.
Zechariah 9:9
Elsewhere it says the Messiah will come on clouds of Heaven or "Glory".
Dan. 7:13–14
Rabbinic Commentators have interpreted this "contradiction" to mean if Jews are righteous at the time of the Coming of the Messiah He will ride into Jerusalem on clouds. If Jews are un-righteous at the time of the coming of the Messiah he will come on a colt.
Now the interesting thing about this commentary is by definition it leaves a prophesy unfulfilled.
Christians OTOH resolve this by noting we will have a Messiah that comes twice. The Dead Scrolls speak of two Messiahs a King Messiah and a Priest Messiah.
The Talmud speaks of Messiah Ben David a King Messiah and Messiah Ben Yusif a suffering Messiah.
We resolve this by having a Messiah that comes twice. Jews therefore cannot complain about "unfulfilled" prophesy.
Just saying.
Cheers Steve.
Yeah, but the Talmud is pure crap. It's a rabbinic invention, and rabbinic Judaism is arguably not Judaism at all. Non-rabbinic Judaism, such as Ethiopian Judaism, doesn't recognize the authority of the Talmud or the rabbis, so why should Catholics take that commentary into any more consideration than we would Mormon commentary or Hindu commentary?
Because it does reflect Jewish thought on the matter.
You said in your article "From the Jewish perspective, if an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah."
He pointed out that that is not true, by quoting from the Talmud, which definitely is a Jewish perspective.
Your response was "but the Talmud is pure crap."
That may be your opinion of the Talmud, but it doesn't change the fact that Jewish thought does allow for a Messiah leaving a prophecy unfulfilled.
If what you say is true, Jews would convert.
Jews don't.
So, it would seem that for all the Jews who are alive today, none of them find your argument convincing. They don't actually allow for the prophecies to remain unfulfilled.
But don't believe me.
Go find a Jew, especially a rabbi, and ask him/her if you are correct.
Then come back and tell me what they said.
Some of them do convert. They're called Hebrew Catholics, Hebrew Christians or Messianic Jews, depending on what form of Christianity they convert to.
As to why many don't, didn't St. Paul address that in Romans chapters 9-11? Particularly this part:
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. - Romans 11:25-32
Have you asked a rabbi if you are correct?
I don't have to ask a rabbi because I already explained why many Jews don't convert. It's in the Book of Romans: "...a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved."
There's also 2 Corinthians 3:13-16, where it says that the Jewish people have a veil upon their hearts when they read the Old Testament, which keeps them from seeing Jesus Christ in it. The explanation is right there in Scripture.
Those passages also promise that the Jewish people will be converted and saved in the end. If Jews no longer exist, then how can they be saved in the end? Is St. Paul wrong?
Steve you are basically loosing it. L A ME !
>Yeah, but the Talmud is pure crap. It's a rabbinic invention, and rabbinic Judaism is arguably not Judaism at all. Non-rabbinic Judaism, such as Ethiopian Judaism, doesn't recognize the authority of the Talmud or the rabbis,
By that lame reasoning Lutheranism is false relative to Catholicism. Lutherans confess the Trinity therefore the doctrine of the Trinity must be false?
Steve don't quit your day job.
Anyway the Dead Sea Scroll writings from the Essences (the Jews whom St John the Baptist likely hung out with) also have the Tradition of the two Messiahs. A Priestly Messiah who suffers and a Kingly Messiah who rules.
So my point stands.
What do the Essence have to do with the Talmud?
Or in other words CHECK MATE!
Steve you are basically loosing it. L A ME !
>Yeah, but the Talmud is pure crap. It's a rabbinic invention, and rabbinic Judaism is arguably not Judaism at all. Non-rabbinic Judaism, such as Ethiopian Judaism, doesn't recognize the authority of the Talmud or the rabbis,
By that lame reasoning Lutheranism is false relative to Catholicism. Lutherans confess the Trinity therefore the doctrine of the Trinity must be false?
Steve don't quit your day job.
Anyway the Dead Sea Scroll writings from the Essences (the Jews whom St John the Baptist likely hung out with) also have the Tradition of the two Messiahs. A Priestly Messiah who suffers and a Kingly Messiah who rules.
So my point stands.
What do the Essences have to do with the Talmud?
Or in other words CHECK MATE!
Lutheranism IS false relative to Catholicism.
The Essenes are dead, died out.
The Jews have nothing to do with the Essenes.
Pointing to the Dead Sea scrolls means you have no actual argument.
That's why no one wants to ask a rabbi - every rabbi would call you an idiot.
I've already explained why I don't have to ask a rabbi anything.
In that earlier post where you first told me to do so, you started by saying:
>If what you say is true, Jews would convert.
>Jews don't.
I disagree with that. First of all, as I pointed out, some Jews do convert. And Messianic Jews in particular do cite the "two Messiahs" belief, saying that those "two Messiahs" are really both fulfilled in Jesus.
Second, it is incorrect to believe that a good and true argument will always bring about conversions. You've done apologetics in the past; you must have met people who simply refused to convert regardless of the strength of your arguments.
So even if what I say is true, that does not mean that every single Jewish person will become Christian as a result of hearing that argument. And as I've said over and over again, the New Testament explains why: "...a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved."
Even if one presents that argument to them, the "hardening" will keep many from believing. Ditto the "veil" mentioned in 2 Corinthians.
That is God's explanation as to why more Jewish people don't come to believe in Jesus.
>Lutheranism IS false relative to Catholicism.
But they believe the Trinity? So does that make Trinity doctrine False?
Nope!
Clearly there is an oral tradition in Judaism across different sects(many of whom are at odds with one another) that there would be two Messiahs. Yet there is only one Messiah? Our Faith resolves this paradox by having One Messiah who comes twice.
So "not fulfilling a prophesy is not an arguement.
>That's why no one wants to ask a rabbi - every rabbi would call you an idiot.
I have consulted a Rabbi. A Frum one (Frum means Orthodox in case you dinnae ken that mate).
Zechariah 9:9 Messiah comes on a Colt.
Elsewhere it says the Messiah will come on clouds of Heaven or "Glory".
Dan. 7:13–14.
MY Rabbinic Friend says Messiah Ben Yusif comes on a colt is martyred and Messiah Ben David on Clouds of Glory.
Steve your post is wrong and it is you sir who has no argument.
Post a Comment