Or that time God wiped out the Chosen People to the last man, woman and child, because they all deserved it, and even Moses couldn't talk Him out of it?
Or that time God killed David for having committed murder and adultery? And besides, David refused to kill Saul, which showed what a weakling David was.
Or that time Jesus executed the adulterous woman by having the crowed stone her to death?
Or that passage in Scripture that says, "In God, there is no lack of shadows, blood and death."
Or that time God said, "Kill your enemies, hate them until they are ground into little bits beneath your feet, for that's what the pagans do, and you know how much I prefer them to you"
Or that time God said, "Make the other guy turn his cheek, and give him a good wallop for Me."
Or that time God said, "If a man asks for your coat, he's trying to mug you, so kill the dirty little bastard."
Or that time God said, "The measure with which you measure isn't something you have to worry about."
Or that time Paul said pagan governments can kill people, because they are pagans and ignorant of God's laws, and their sword falls like rain on the just and the unjust, so Christians should imitate pagans as soon as they get the reigns of government?
Or all the other things God had to say about the death penalty?
Or all those things the early Church said about the death penalty?
And let us not forget about Augustine, Doctor of the Church.
Yes, I tell you what, all of you great Catholics out there, since you are without sin, you can support the death penalty. I'll even let you throw the first stone or flip the first switch.
Otherwise, you need to shut up and listen to the Pope.
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father (the Pope) or the voice of his mother (the Church), and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city (the Holy Trinity) at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
"Paul said pagan governments can kill people, because they are pagans and ignorant of God's laws,"
ReplyDeleteSt. Paul never said anything of the sort. He did, however, say that human governments (whether the humans are Jew or Gentile, faithful or infidel, is irrelevant) are appointed by God and given by Him the right to execute the death penalty.
"Yes, I tell you what, all of you great Catholics out there, since you are without sin, you can support the death penalty. I'll even let you throw the first stone or flip the first switch."
Well, that's mighty generous of you -- except you don't get any say in this. It's not up to you to say who may or may not use the death penalty. That's God's job, and He doesn't need your or my or anyone else's help -- and He's already made the truth on this matter clear, in Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium.
Just as you distort what the Scriptures say and what the Church has said on this matter, so you are creating a ridiculous caricature of the position of your Catholic opponents (easier to do that attempt to grapple with what they actually believe and what they actually argue). The grave problems with the expressions that the pope has inserted in the Catechism can't be waved away so easily.
"Otherwise, you need to shut up and listen to the Pope."
He doesn't get any say in this matter either if he presumes to say things that contradict the Scriptures, the Apostolic Tradition, and the infallible Magisterium of the Church.
Confitebor,
ReplyDeleteDon't you find it interesting that the same God who proclaimed "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do," while on the cross mind you, crucified by those he was praying for forgiveness for, didn't say, "You'll get what's coming to you for what you have done to me." He knew people's hearts; why then would he say that they didn't know what they were doing?
Don't you find a disconnect between your eagerness to justify putting people to death for their wrong doing, and Jesus' readiness to forgive?
Capital punishment is a matter for the state to decide, but the fact that a Catholic would be arguing for it as though WE have a dogmatic right and duty to put criminals to death is not at the heart of the Gospel.
You're arguments sound like the arguments put forward by the Sadducees and Pharisees. Or even when James and John were keen to reign down fire from heaven to destroy the Samaritan village. I'm sure their arguments were all based on some sort of scriptural reference, but it didn't make it right.
"Don't you find it interesting that the same God who proclaimed 'Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do,' while on the cross mind you, crucified by those he was praying for forgiveness for, didn't say, 'You'll get what's coming to you for what you have done to me.'"
ReplyDeleteHmm. And yet Jesus did utter parables such as this one in Matt. 22: 1-14:
1 AND Jesus answering, spoke again in parables to them, saying: 2 The kingdom of heaven is likened to a king, who made a marriage for his son. 3 And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying: Tell them that were invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my beeves and fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come ye to the marriage. 5 But they neglected, and went their own ways, one to his farm, and another to his merchandise. 6 And the rest laid hands on his servants, and having treated them contumeliously, put them to death. 7 But when the king had heard of it, he was angry, and sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burnt their city.
The city, as we all know, was Jerusalem -- in A.D. 70 God sent Rome to destroy that city for what they had done in A.D. 33 and afterwards. The same city for whom God Incarnate wept and prayed.
Michael, mercy is not the enemy of justice. In Christ Jesus, justice and mercy have kissed.
"Capital punishment is a matter for the state to decide, but the fact that a Catholic would be arguing for it as though WE have a dogmatic right and duty to put criminals to death is not at the heart of the Gospel."
Obviously the licitness of capital punishment is by no means at the heart of the Gospel. Nevertheless the Church has upheld the licitness of capital punishment for 2,000 years. No one, not even a pope, has the authority to reverse that teaching.
Really? That's your response?
ReplyDeleteThe Church-and-State-Separation reasoning where the Church has no place in influencing in state affairs? Or is that we should let God take care of the mercy; we're responsible for the justice (or vengeance, it seems)?
Justice is still served through jail time and life sentences. The licitness of capital punishment was to keep the community safe. How are we, in this society in this day and age, unable to keep the community safe from criminals? Life sentences keep criminals out of the community, as much as a death sentence. Or must we have blood? Mercy in sparing someone's life does not rob anyone of justice, and no one is suggesting that the death penalty should be traded for freedom.
And so capital punishment is NOT at the heart of the gospel, but it MUST remain in our society AND the Pope has no right to say otherwise?
I'm sorry, Michael, but I cannot for the life of me figure out what your latest comment has to do with what I said.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your very last sentence, since the licitness of capital punishment has been taught by the Church unvaryingly for 2,000 years, that point of doctrine may never been gainsaid by anyone, not even the pope. The pope is bound to teach and expound the Faith, not to invent new teachings or to contradict what the Church has always said. Inasmuch as Pope Francis has made statements on the death penalty that fly in the face of what the Church teaches, it is he who is wrong, not the Church.
God is clear that we MAY use the death penalty, when it is called for, when it is justified.
MAY.
Not MUST.