tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post3552434844617816134..comments2024-03-20T16:30:09.690-05:00Comments on The Fifth Column: Confirmation ProblemUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-68096085298897072562010-05-07T17:23:15.004-05:002010-05-07T17:23:15.004-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-11940491114752374892010-05-07T17:21:31.148-05:002010-05-07T17:21:31.148-05:00Busy for new posts lately, Steve? :)Busy for new posts lately, Steve? :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-34174891461621045612010-05-03T22:40:34.424-05:002010-05-03T22:40:34.424-05:00Sarah,
Read CCC 1308. Note that the sacrament of...Sarah, <br /><br />Read CCC 1308. Note that the sacrament of Confirmation is<br /><br />not<br />NOT<br />*NOT*<br /><br />a sacrament for adults. Indeed, of the 22 rites of the Catholic Church, 21 of them confirm infants.<br /><br />Confirmation is NOT a rite of passage to adulthood. Anyone who tells you it is doesn't know anything about the sacrament and has NEVER read or understood the CCC on the subject.<br /><br />Read what the CCC says about what it does (1302-1305). Ignore your "teachers." What part of that scares you? <br /><br />All it does is strengthen the gifts you got in baptism. It does NOT give you any new gifts of grace. It just makes you better able to use what you already have.<br /><br />What is scary about that?Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-31381353617949369742010-05-03T15:40:49.701-05:002010-05-03T15:40:49.701-05:00Hi,
I am 12 years of age and living in Ireland. Th...Hi,<br />I am 12 years of age and living in Ireland. The norm here is to be confirmed at 11,12 or 13. I am schedueled to be confirmed in less than two weeks. But, alas I don't feel ready. I would be counted mature for my age and I know for a fact that the other thousands of pre teens in Ireland that will be getting confirmed at this age in Ireland havve no clue and I repeat no clue as to what they are receiving.<br /><br />I do not want to recieve my confirmation this year. I would rather wait until I'm 18. I think confirmation is and adult sacrament and at 12 I'm not an adult. I go to Church every Sunday. I say my prayers and quite frankly am alot closer to God than the other children in my class who are, believe it or not being pressured into recieving a sacrament that they don't understand.<br /><br />My teacher and local pastor/priest are saying my wish NOT to recieve the sacrament now is just a "teenage phase". I'm afraid it's not and my mother has said she will back me on my decision.<br /><br />Confirmation should be when the person themselves feel ready. Anybody can learn a few prayers off and recite them to the Bishop but very few 12 year olds have strong enough faith for this sacrament. I am standing by my desision.Sarah xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941939311519775545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-91447673932606422362010-04-16T05:50:08.790-05:002010-04-16T05:50:08.790-05:00There was a point made earlier that needs to be en...There was a point made earlier that needs to be enhanced. Under John Paul II, it was pointed out that without an Internet presence, the Catholic Church has no voice in much of the world which is why he pushed hard for better Vatican resources on the web. That is still the case. I have literally dozens of friends and co-workers in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s who have never picked up a newspaper for anything other than the sports section. They have never used a library after high school or college. They have seriously never bought anything other than magazines in book stores. Any Catholic information they have picked up has been through religious news articles on the Net, homilies in church or when they skipped through channels on cable/satellite television. Though it may be difficult (though not impossible) to use the Internet for spiritual reading, those resources are the only ones that even have a chance to be accessed by much of the population. I know I use the Net extensively for Catholic documents because the local bookstores are nearly useless, but so are most local churches whose very priests can no longer explain their faith, and the only religious television channel offered by my local cable provider is EWTN whose information I have learned long ago "to trust but verify". Considering the Catholic Church was nearly the sole information source during the Middle Ages, it can no longer even be called the soul information source for most Catholics today and it will never become one again if it cannot get information through to the average Catholic in the modern world.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-5931378458052489682010-04-15T23:10:24.372-05:002010-04-15T23:10:24.372-05:00Steve, thanks for the heads up on that...my younge...Steve, thanks for the heads up on that...my youngest came along after our multifamily Confirmation trip. Very good to know.<br /><br />Sigh. Onward and heavenward, we hope!Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892036901394901707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-57069551060200707452010-04-15T22:43:23.977-05:002010-04-15T22:43:23.977-05:00I guess I'll just start praying my son needs h...I guess I'll just start praying my son needs his appendix taken out around the age of 8...Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05441415866621151610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-37981815450622856422010-04-15T22:32:13.235-05:002010-04-15T22:32:13.235-05:00Cardinal Ratzinger once said, "Success is not...Cardinal Ratzinger once said, "Success is not one of the names of God."<br /><br />Mother Teresa liked to point out that we are called to serve, not to succeed. <br /><br />You thought, being Catholic, you could avoid crucifixion? Avoid scourging by the people who were supposed to be your friends and support? Where in the Gospels did you get that idea? :)<br /><br />But, I, too, have been absolutely outraged by the sins of the priests - the sins against the liturgy, the constant mis-teaching of Church doctrine. That's why I wrote a book about it, after all! :)<br /><br />If there are priests anywhere that you trust, go to them for your children's sacraments. Every one of my children has received their sacraments from my brother-in-law, a good priest who lives ten hours away from us. Which is closer than he was. He used to be a two-day drive. We've never gone through a parish children's prep program and we never will. <br /><br />Confirmation we're still working on, but I'm willing to wait until they're 18 if that's what it takes to avoid the parish prep programs. <br /><br />I refuse to send them through those things. <br /><br />Oh, keep in mind that if you have a child who is ill enough and old enough (age of reason) to receive Anointing of the Sick (e.g., the child has to undergo surgery), and the child is not confirmed, the priest is REQUIRED to confirm the child before Anointing. <br /><br />That's an additional way to avoid the parish Confirmation program! :)Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-67058896377573379862010-04-15T22:19:21.991-05:002010-04-15T22:19:21.991-05:00So we do nothing other than have 15 kids that we r...So we do nothing other than have 15 kids that we raise in the faith...? <br /><br /><br />I'll be honest I'm sick and tired of being Catholic. It seems insane to stick to a faith that can only be found by reading a book or talking to a few strangers over the Internet! It is to embarrassing to evangelize. What are you supposed to say "This is the one true faith but ignore everything the people in leadership say."? How does one teach their children to respect priests when their tertiary priest refers to himself as the "punk priest"? If there was another Church that Jesus established I'd run away as quick as possible! <br /><br />I've discovered a TLM an hour away. That has been a bit of a respite but when I see the Mass as it should be I just get angrier about all the abuses to the liturgy that currently occur in the majority of parishes across the globe. <br /><br />Please excuse my rant I know it doesn't have all that much to do with the topic at hand but the thought of battling with some heretic priest over my son receiving the sacraments is enough to make my blood boil!Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05441415866621151610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-60892645466405149762010-04-15T21:52:22.323-05:002010-04-15T21:52:22.323-05:00Elizabeth,
I don't disagree with most of your...Elizabeth,<br /><br />I don't disagree with most of your points. The only people who show up for sessions are people interested in the Faith (or at least in some kind of faith) already. It is almost always retired people, and occasionally a group of stay-at-home mothers. <br /><br />It is impossible to do spiritual reading on the Internet - you need a book for that. <br /><br />Adult formation classes would typically be run by the same nut jobs who got us into this mess, so they would be of limited usefulness.<br /><br />My point isn't that a library is not useful - it is. Rather, the problem is identical to the problem of adult formation sessions (even good ones): how do you convince anyone out in the parish to come to the parish library? <br /><br />This isn't Field of Dreams. Just because we build it doesn't mean they'll come.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-54914630445991613802010-04-15T21:30:20.042-05:002010-04-15T21:30:20.042-05:00I doubt that the under 40 crowd is interested in s...I doubt that the under 40 crowd is interested in showing up to adult education classes on how to teach their children the faith any more than they're interested in opening a book. My experience is people either already care about their faith enough to learn about it on their own or they don't care enough about it to make an effort to learn more. <br /><br />The Internet is great but I question the efficacy of learning your faith via the Internet. Perhaps others have a better Internet attention span than I do but when surfing the Internet I often learn interesting trivia but rarely do I learn something that is truly spiritually enriching. <br /><br />My other comment would be I wouldn't want to poison my mind with the crap most of these classes would inevitably be filled with! There are of course a few good orthodox "teachers" but they are few and far between.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05441415866621151610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-11588151885172371962010-04-15T12:00:32.976-05:002010-04-15T12:00:32.976-05:00I know a lot of people who want to establish paris...I know a lot of people who want to establish parish libraries, but I'm not sure it's a viable solution anymore.<br /><br />Who would use it?<br /><br />Most people I know, when they want to find out something, they google it. <br /><br />The number of people who read books each year is dropping, book sales in general are dropping every year, Christian book sales have been dropping every quarter for the past several years (4th Q 2009 was the first time it didn't in a long time). <br /><br />Surveys show people over 60 still read books, people over 40 prefer pamphlets at the back of church, and people under 40 prefer the Internet. By the time the parish library is built up to a useful point, the people who would use it will mostly be dead.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-61134987394620262682010-04-15T11:13:01.144-05:002010-04-15T11:13:01.144-05:00We'd probably be better served to fire the DRE...We'd probably be better served to fire the DRE's etc and use their salary to furnish an orthodox parish library.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05441415866621151610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-69718415354674720332010-04-14T10:31:41.316-05:002010-04-14T10:31:41.316-05:00To be honest, adult education even endangers the C...To be honest, adult education even endangers the Catholic school, because the only way you can distinguish between the Catholic school and the public school now is the religion class. <br /><br />When parents realize they can do that on their own, then what, exactly, is the point of the parish school? It's staffed by non-Catholics and populated by a large number of non-Catholics. It really just serves as a way for affluent Catholic parents to keep their children away from whatever local minority/problem group there may be. <br /><br />Even in the inner city, the point of the Catholic school is to keep children of involved parents away from the gangs of children of uninvolved parents in the public school. <br /><br />So, to keep everything status quo ante, the parents have to remain emasculated. Part of the parish staff's reason for being is precisely to maintain that status quo ante.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-84879743911639345412010-04-14T10:27:23.601-05:002010-04-14T10:27:23.601-05:00Patrick:
You are EXACTLY correct.
The whole point...Patrick:<br /><br />You are EXACTLY correct.<br />The whole point of the sacramental prep programs - and all the other parish programs - is to make sure the parish staff stays employed. <br /><br />They don't WANT parents involved. <br />The don't WANT adults taught.<br />If parents got involved, had to learn the Faith, and actually taught their own children, think of all the jobs that would be lost!<br /><br />No DRE. <br />No need for a secretary to handle class scheduling for dozens of individual classes. <br />No need for a volunteer coordinator. <br />No need for a youth coordinator. <br />No need for a CRAP (Children Really Are Protected) program.<br /><br />Why do you think classes are offered at times difficult for parents to attend? That's PLANNED, my friend. Adult events are scheduled so that only old people and the unemployed can show up. <br /><br />Nobody talks about it, but NOBODY wants adult formation. Priests don't want it because parents start demanding their rights, and start asking uncomfortable questions about how Father runs the liturgy. DREs, Youth Ministers and the rest don't want it because it endangers their phoney-baloney jobs.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-85725958094344126482010-04-14T07:56:04.204-05:002010-04-14T07:56:04.204-05:00Lovely thought, however most religious educators w...Lovely thought, however most religious educators would be worried that allowing parents to do the education alone would lead to a cut in Catholic education (and possibly their services). I do like the idea that the parents should be going to classes with the kids, however in my area the class schedules are often at times that are unlikely to allow very many adults with jobs to attend as well. My local bishop is fighting for the parents to show up at least 50% of the time for Sunday mass (and makes this point in every homily) much less trying to maintain the parents education in their faith as well.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-50570082757522361242010-04-13T15:12:42.898-05:002010-04-13T15:12:42.898-05:00The best confirmation program would be one which f...The best confirmation program would be one which followed the documents of the Church.<br /><br />If you want to create a parish community that lasts, it has to be built around the parents, not the kids. <br /><br />Kids move, change, grow and leave in ten years. While parents do move, parents are much more likely to be in the parish for fifty years. There's essentially zero chance the kids will be. <br /><br />So, the best process would be a parish program that taught parents how to prepare their own children for confirmation. This strengthens parent-child ties, family ties, which is the primary point of anything the parish does. A secondary consequence would be a building up of the "association of parents" that <i>Familiaris Consortio</i> describes. <br /><br />Parents in this program would naturally learn to lean into each other and form associations with one another as they try to figure out how to get their job done. <br /><br />Ideally, the "catechism classes" that Rite of Confirmation #3 refers to would also be taught be parents of the confirmands, and for exactly the same reasons as described above. The parents would be forced to learn and grow in their own Faith just to be able to teach the catechism classes to their own children.<br /><br />If a parent doesn't want to participate in this, fine, that's their choice. But the first Confession, Confirmation and first Eucharist prep program must all be set up like the baptism prep programs - you teach the parents, let the parents teach their own children.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-13638770918273628342010-04-13T14:51:21.282-05:002010-04-13T14:51:21.282-05:00Steve, in your mind CAN there be a good confirmati...Steve, in your mind CAN there be a good confirmation program run by a parish? Or is it an intrinsically flawed system?Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05441415866621151610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-25551183537007784652010-04-12T21:31:20.683-05:002010-04-12T21:31:20.683-05:00Oops! That should read "is what led me to see...Oops! That should read "is what led me to seek the Sacrament of Confirmation outside the US for my own children."Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892036901394901707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-18009377925291043552010-04-12T20:59:29.707-05:002010-04-12T20:59:29.707-05:00Mamie,
I'm glad you have access to a good one...Mamie,<br /><br />I'm glad you have access to a good one. <br /><br />I've worked in three different parishes in three different states. I am not personally acquainted with any decent confirmation programs.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-90129060965898431432010-04-12T20:20:59.338-05:002010-04-12T20:20:59.338-05:00The silliness of some confirmation programs here i...The silliness of some confirmation programs here in the US - including my own ridiculous program when I was a teen - is what led me to seek the Sacrament of Confirmation outside the US. <br /><br />I'm praying that our diocese will mimic that of Tyler, Texas and a few others who have come to realize that all the sacraments of initiation (baptism, Reconciliation/Eucharist, confirmation) are supposed to be done in relative close succession (less than 8 years apart)!<br /><br />As a side note, I was confirmed through a ridiculous LifeTeen program by the founder of the program in Az., who has now been defrocked. God help us!Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892036901394901707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-33864823333199841082010-04-12T18:55:41.018-05:002010-04-12T18:55:41.018-05:00Hi Steve, there are good confirmation programs, a...Hi Steve, there are good confirmation programs, as well as bad ones. We at IHM in Los Alamos have a wonderful youth ministry and a common sense approach, working with student and family. That's the way it ought to be done. It helps to have a supportive pastor, which we do. We really need pastor leadership. In our times, there's too much at stake. Pettiness, sloppy programs should not be tolerated.Mamie Farishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14722018792822335816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-50935190882420052452010-04-12T16:59:31.396-05:002010-04-12T16:59:31.396-05:00David,
According to the documents, a bishop is no...David,<br /><br />According to the documents, a bishop is not permitted to refuse a child confirmation based on age alone.<br /><br />If you had prepared your daughter, so that there was no question of her readiness apart from age, and then appealed to the bishop, he would have been stuck. You could then have appealed to the papal nuncio.<br /><br />Your solution is also good, however! :) Personally, I will not send any of my children through a parish confirmation program because the programs are all stupid.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-81809926995010186942010-04-12T16:41:59.838-05:002010-04-12T16:41:59.838-05:00We were living in the US for 2 years and our eldes...We were living in the US for 2 years and our eldest was ready for confirmation. Back home in Australia, confirmation is for grade 5 or 6 students, in this US diocese it was for 15/16 year olds. The parish priest wouldn't let my daughter be confirmed as she was too young. Knowledge and readiness were not relevant. The fact I was actually teaching the confirmation class was also not important. I wrote to the bishop who replied it was the priest's decision.<br />So we waited until we returned home from the "land of the free" and had the eldest three children confirmed together at a homeschooling camp.DavidofOzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02136344116351504419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-46276086311859387792010-04-12T16:29:15.997-05:002010-04-12T16:29:15.997-05:00That's great advice. I wonder which path he/sh...That's great advice. I wonder which path he/she will take? <br /><br />I'd know that I'd take number 2 in a heartbeat myself, to let the priest and possibly the Bishop understand that alienating those that take their faith seriously isn't the best approach.<br /><br />"Join the Community." Please. Any pastor should jump for joy that the parents are willing to personally teach the Confirmation course to their children.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18187977575683088977noreply@blogger.com