tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post1014158950270579438..comments2024-03-20T16:30:09.690-05:00Comments on The Fifth Column: Condom Use Is Moral?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-71142612751489905702019-08-03T19:57:19.035-05:002019-08-03T19:57:19.035-05:00Hi everyone, I am Sharon. from Poland I want to us...Hi everyone, I am Sharon. from Poland I want to use this medium to appreciate Dr Ogbeifun the great black magic death spells caster for the successful death spells he cast on someone for me. I contacted him when my husband left me for another woman who uses witchcraft power to take my husband. I was desperately in need of help when I found his contacts online about his genuine powers. I told him my situation and how I wanted the bitch who took my husband gone. He told me not to worry. He cast the death spells ritual on her and the bitch died in her sleep within 24hours. Now my husband is back home and we are living happily. 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If you can help or you need his help write him on (dr.abalaka@outlook.com) and also his cell number: 760-935-3804 you can text him because he use to be very busy some times,i believe that your story will change for better,or if you have any question you can contact me here as 1001madonado@gmail.com i wish you a best of luck.Madonaldohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05637720202380079008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-10391110573573373082010-12-10T14:37:41.333-06:002010-12-10T14:37:41.333-06:00Notwithstanding a great deal of confusion on the p...Notwithstanding a great deal of confusion on the part of commentators, to disagree with the Pope's remarks, in their full context, is to believe:<br /><br />In the most marginal case, for example of a male prostitute, as he first begins to become aware of the harm of his behavior, that perhaps not everything is allowed, <b>is bound, in conscience, to refuse to use a condom in an act of sodomy</b>, because condoms are a contraceptive. That refusal, exposing himself and another to greater risk of death for the sake of respecting the noble ideal of what the act profanes, will be the first step toward moralization, a first recognition of sound theology, or at least will not move him in the wrong direction, as the condom use most certainly would.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15123119830359717991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-39065520643512411692010-12-10T12:38:51.899-06:002010-12-10T12:38:51.899-06:00Teresa, I'm not trying to be uncharitable, I&#...Teresa, I'm not trying to be uncharitable, I'm just trying to figure out your position.<br /><br />The Pope said the use of the condom can be "a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility."<br /><br />Both of those are movements towards the good and mitigation of evil. Indeed, the clarification of the papal statement used exactly that phrase, IIRC. <br /><br />In order to move towards the good (i.e., mitigate the evil), we must first be (a) given grace and (b) cooperate with the grace given us. <br /><br />Now, there are all kinds of grace e.g., providential, actual, or sanctifying. <br /><br />No one is saying the sodomite receives the salvific, sanctifying grace of the sacraments by using a condom.<br /><br />But the Pope clearly DOES mean to say that the sodomite who uses condoms with right intent is cooperating with actual (non-salvific) grace. <br /><br />It is a dogma of the Church that we can't move towards the good OR mitigate evil unless we cooperate with grace. What the Pope describes is precisely this movement. So I think it is perfectly legitimate to ask how your position doesn't lead to Pelagianism.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-9112467664121108172010-12-10T12:29:52.285-06:002010-12-10T12:29:52.285-06:00The accusation of Pelagianism is grossly uncharita...The accusation of Pelagianism is grossly uncharitable. It would be less uncharitable for me to accuse you of taking a hard-line Calvinist position of Total Depravity, but I would refrain from that. Try to remember that my position is not that the condom-wearing sodomite is choosing the good. I do not believe it is. So I could hardly be saying that they are choosing a good act, as such, without God's help. My position is that I do not believe that the Pope said it was good. I also do not think that the Holy Father was taking the position that the condom-wearing sodomite was "cooperating with grace" in any meaningful, potentially salvific sense. That reading of the Holy Father's remarks seems worse than uncharitable - it seems to be quite unfair and unnecessary. I am having a hard time figuring out your position, Steve. Do you think that the condom-wearing sodomite is cooperating with grace, or do you attribute that position to the pope and judge his view to be incorrect?Teresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04908173926196232573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-7422212611035099462010-12-10T09:24:04.116-06:002010-12-10T09:24:04.116-06:00Teresa,
How can you take the first step towards m...Teresa,<br /><br />How can you take the first step towards moralization or assumption of responsibility, how can you have any charity for your fellow man WITHOUT grace?<br /><br />Does a man move towards the good on his own without the need for grace? <br /><br />Are we all Pelagians now?<br /><br />The Church is kind of against that idea, having formally condemned it on numerous occasions.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-14565455182751591942010-12-09T23:46:51.023-06:002010-12-09T23:46:51.023-06:00How could two people committing sodomy be cooperat...How could two people committing sodomy be cooperating with grace? <br /><br />The Pope never said that the use of the condom in this instance involved the cooperation with grace.Teresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04908173926196232573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-10107889296622580062010-12-09T21:31:36.599-06:002010-12-09T21:31:36.599-06:00"Does a "first step in the direction of ..."Does a "first step in the direction of moralization" really constitute a "good"? Does recognition of a moral responsibility really mean that a person is cooperating in a "good act"<br /><br />In both cases the actor is cooperating with grace.<br /><br />Again, if you think cooperation with grace is not a good, then you're right about what the Pope said. <br /><br />On the other hand, if you DO think cooperation with grace is a good, then you're wrong about what the Pope said.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-44132599902059361722010-12-09T21:27:51.448-06:002010-12-09T21:27:51.448-06:00Does a "first step in the direction of morali...Does a "first step in the direction of moralization" really constitute a "good"? Does recognition of a moral responsibility really mean that a person is cooperating in a "good act"? This is not stating that the person has come full circle and is taking part in a moral or a "good" act but rather is accepting some responsibility for his bad actions which may lead the person to form a better conscience and make a good decision in the future to avoid engaging in sex altogether. <br /><br />Two homosexuals engaging in sex without the use of condoms is an immoral act. Two homosexuals engaging in sex while using condoms is an immoral act. Two homosexuals engaging in sex when one has HIV is an immoral act. Two homosexuals engaging in sex when one person has HIV and uses a condom is an immoral act but the preventative measure used so that the other partner doesn't get HIV is better than not using a condom. <br /><br />Better does not mean "good".Teresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04908173926196232573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-80606877372328543132010-12-09T20:53:09.245-06:002010-12-09T20:53:09.245-06:00"Good" equals "this can be a first ..."Good" equals "this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility."<br /><br />If you don't agree that these things are good, then you're right, he didn't. But if you do, then he did.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-50367795969019378692010-12-09T20:50:52.809-06:002010-12-09T20:50:52.809-06:00The Pope said: "There may be a basis in the c...The Pope said: "There <b>may</b> be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality. <br /><br /> Pope Benedict says “may” and not “is”. Then, Pope Benedict goes on to reiterate that “it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality.” <br /><br />Where did Pope Benedict say that the condom use is a good?Teresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04908173926196232573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-91569634122603996692010-12-09T20:34:30.647-06:002010-12-09T20:34:30.647-06:00The Holy Father did indeed say the use of a condom...The Holy Father did indeed say the use of a condom was a good, in the sense that, if the user had the right intent, it moved the user towards the good.<br /><br />The use of the pill for endometriosis is a different situation since there it is not necessarily the case that the woman using it is having sex at all. However, in order for the condom to be effective for reducing disease transmission, it must be used during the sexual encounter. <br /><br />Thus, the use of a condom necessarily entails a sexual aspect that the use of the pill for endometriosis does not necessarily entail.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-42894586712715774472010-12-09T19:54:05.827-06:002010-12-09T19:54:05.827-06:00Since the Holy Father didn't say that the &quo...Since the Holy Father didn't say that the "use" of the condom was a "good" but rather that it was a lesser evil and a recognition of a moral responsibility to prevent another individual from getting HIV I don't see how that departs from previous Church Teachings. It's not like two homosexuals can procreate so by using the condoms they wouldn't be preventing procreation. I am not saying either act or the use of condoms is good but rather that the condom would be preventing a greater evil from occurring. <br /><br />Okay, what about when a "contraceptive pill" is used for a disease such as endometriosis? Since the "pill" is normally used as a contraceptive wouldn't that be a similar scenario as the Pope's condom scenario?Teresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04908173926196232573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-18899797027681229502010-12-09T09:49:53.653-06:002010-12-09T09:49:53.653-06:00Patrick,
Desiring to fornicate, engage in sodomy ...Patrick,<br /><br />Desiring to fornicate, engage in sodomy or adultery is not desiring a good.<br /><br />If you have a deadly disease, such as syphilis or HIV, then you shouldn't be trying to simply reduce the chance of killing your partner, you shouldn't be having sex at all. <br /><br />I agree the two scenarios are not entirely equivalent. <br /><br />In the fornication with HIV scenario, the person is trying to reduce the chance his/her partner is killed in his own pursuit of pleasure. Despite his desire, however, the partner may still get infected and die.<br /><br />In the rape scenario, the rapist is not trying to kill anyone at all and no one will die no matter what happens. All he's trying to do is conceive life. <br /><br />So the rapist's intention is objectively superior to the HIV infected person, if only because the risk of death to the other person is so substantially less, and the ordering of the sexuality (at least in the case of sodomy vs. heterosexuality) is morally superior. <br /><br />And yes, rape is morally superior to sodomy, although both will damn you to hell.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-62052186972282356772010-12-09T05:31:37.310-06:002010-12-09T05:31:37.310-06:00I'm not using the rapist argument because it i...I'm not using the rapist argument because it is not equivalent. Desiring good is not the same as trying to lessen an evil. You should not do an intentional evil act and believe it will result in good, but you can lessen the severity of an evil act. If you are robbed with the intent of getting your money is a different level of evil than robbing with the intent to kill. Where the court systems go even further and require premeditation to determine the level of evil, theology only requires the action and the intent. Unintentionally giving someone poisoned food is a completely different morality than intentionally giving them that same food, though the consequences are the same. Fornicating in any situation is evil, but doing so knowing that it can kill them is a whole new level, which is why there are different understandings of levels of evil.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-61252222961373249422010-12-08T21:24:48.411-06:002010-12-08T21:24:48.411-06:00If the priest misunderstood that part of the papal...If the priest misunderstood <b>that</b> part of the papal instruction, then how do we know that he got ANY part of it right?<br /><br />The Pope said the use of a condom mitigates the evil of ANY sexual act, sex of the persons involved wasn't relevant.<br /><br />That appears very strongly to be erroneous. The evil of contraception is not mitigated at all. <br /><br />Again, there's no moral difference between a man who uses a condom because he doesn't want to transmit disease and a man who doesn't use a condom during a rape because he intends to beget a child.<br /><br />Both intend a moral good while in the midst of undertaking a moral evil. <br /><br />But no one is using the rape example because it highlights the distastefulness of the Benedict's opinion.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-46804503365567602572010-12-08T18:05:40.012-06:002010-12-08T18:05:40.012-06:00Physical deadly disease is a natural evil; knowing...Physical deadly disease is a natural evil; knowingly giving someone a deadly disease is a moral evil. The openness to pro-create in marriage, even if it ends in a life, should never be considered giving one a disease and the priest obviously misunderstood the original papal discussion.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-50272014128948780512010-12-08T17:46:05.080-06:002010-12-08T17:46:05.080-06:00a) Physical disease is a physical evil, not a mora...a) Physical disease is a physical evil, not a moral evil.<br /><br />b) Some people consider pregnancy a disease that can cause death - our priest in this article is very close to that position when he says a child can destroy a girl's entire life.<br /><br />c) While it's nice to have a good intent, having a good intent does not make one sane.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-62492010902891786462010-12-08T17:44:24.883-06:002010-12-08T17:44:24.883-06:00Fornication is a physical evil. Fornication with ...Fornication is a physical evil. Fornication with a disease that can bring death becomes a moral evil, which is a much greater evil. The condom brings it back to a level of physical evil if the intent is used to protect the other from the disease. The intent did not do away with the consequence of evil of the original act, but does change the level of the immorality involved.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-53873465629258695392010-12-08T17:23:32.050-06:002010-12-08T17:23:32.050-06:00Patrick, the act of heterosexual sex always contai...Patrick, the act of heterosexual sex always contains within it the possibility of procreation, so the act itself ALWAYS contains the intent to procreate because that's the primary biological purpose of the act.<br /><br />To argue that the act of the will can CHANGE what is intended by the biological reality is absurd - it bears no contact with reality.<br /><br />If I were to jump off a building with the intent to fly, that intent would make my suicide no less real. The faulty intent would just prove I was insane. <br /><br />Anyone who looks at the heterosexual act and ignores the procreative aspect is, in an analogous fashion, also insane.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-85852125356904137412010-12-08T16:45:59.736-06:002010-12-08T16:45:59.736-06:00The hypothetical still works for the Popes origina...The hypothetical still works for the Popes original argument because pro-creation was not the intent of the prostitution act at all. The argument is a different one when extended to the use in marriage because the Catholic assumption is pro-creation should always be a possibility. The Opus Dei priest made an argument outside the intent of the original statement.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-16495254323121415632010-12-08T15:33:49.953-06:002010-12-08T15:33:49.953-06:00Your analogy doesn't work.
Taking bread in or...Your analogy doesn't work.<br /><br />Taking bread in order to preserve someone's life is not properly stealing at all, since the person who owns the bread has a moral duty to give it to you to prevent your mother's death via starvation. All the Fathers agree on this, with Chrysostom being the most vocal about it.<br /><br />Same goes with "stealing" a car.<br /><br />But the priest doesn't say that. He actually says that condom use <b>to prevent pregnancy</b> is acceptable between fornicators. That simply can't be seen anywhere in the Fathers. It is a violation of Tradition. <br /><br />The Opus Dei priest is a heretical, but OSV doesn't question him in a way that exposes the lie.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-54365639080850022722010-12-08T14:55:33.197-06:002010-12-08T14:55:33.197-06:00Let's place this into another context - say a ...Let's place this into another context - say a child stealing a loaf of bread to keep their mother from starving or a person who steals a car in order to gain freedom from someone trying to kill them - we can see a similar situation of intent and material use. The consequences of doing what may be an immoral act can be lightened by the intent of the offender to save a life (anothers or their own). However, the victim still suffers the same consequence no matter the actors intent.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08381087750301180720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-50088849073777798572010-12-08T10:57:46.200-06:002010-12-08T10:57:46.200-06:00Excellent question.
The priest in the OSV articl...Excellent question. <br /><br />The priest in the OSV article throws out all the good buzz words. He talks about how we cannot do evil, but we can tolerate evil, etc. <br /><br />So, we're supposed to tolerate a lousy candidate because we can't legitimately expect a good candidate to win. This proposition is actually taken from William F. Buckley, the man who famously said of the Church "Mater, si, Magister, No!" (Mother, yes, Teacher, No!). <br /><br />Ask the priest who tells you this if he is a fan of William Buckley. If he isn't, then point out to him that he, in fact, is.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-61008505183164496622010-12-08T10:48:52.910-06:002010-12-08T10:48:52.910-06:00I'm going to throw a huge wrench into this who...I'm going to throw a huge wrench into this whole controversy because I have not seen this proposition anywhere since the Holy Father made these comments in his forthcoming book. During elections, we are told we can vote for the lesser of two evils, EVEN IF THERE IS A 100% pro-life GOOD ALTERNATIVE. Case in point, voting Third Party. The subjective (not objective) reasoning allowed for voting for a "less evil" candidate is that the 100% pro-life candidate cannot win. Oft cited is the "lesser of two evils" situation. I see many similarities with some of the theological arguments, same verbiage, same justification for some evil. If all the words applied to this present controversy regarding the Holy Father's words were used in the case of elections, how would all that play out? Inquiring confused Catholics wants to know!Darla Meyershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02515744525500671794noreply@blogger.com