tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post4051517076597062009..comments2024-03-20T16:30:09.690-05:00Comments on The Fifth Column: That's The End of the Novus OrdoUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-34012423679776822142011-05-16T14:40:32.136-05:002011-05-16T14:40:32.136-05:00Cruise the Groove,
With this second document, the...Cruise the Groove,<br /><br />With this second document, the Pope has made it quite clear that it doesn't matter what the priest wants.<br /><br />What matters is what the people want. <br /><br />Now, it is going to take a few years for the laity to beat this reality into the heads of recalcitrant priests and bishops, but the end game is already clear.<br /><br />The Novus Ordo as it currently exists will no longer exist in another couple of decades. It's time is over. <br /><br />You can hasten this by making formal requests to your parish priest and your bishop, keeping copies of all negative responses, and then sending all of it to the Ecclesia Dei commission. <br /><br />They'll beat on the ordained men for you. That's why the commission was set up.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-84247995804409652102011-05-16T14:38:02.644-05:002011-05-16T14:38:02.644-05:00Jackson,
You are nuts.
Sincerely,
SteveJackson,<br /><br />You are nuts.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />SteveSteve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-15532235007569146222011-05-16T13:36:54.022-05:002011-05-16T13:36:54.022-05:00But what if there is no priest in ones diocese tha...But what if there is no priest in ones diocese that expresses a desire to offer the TLM?<br />And the faitful have petitioned both the Ordinary and the PCED, for years and nothing happens,<br />How is this the end of the NO?Dan Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07364277284129639303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-66182232165762746242011-05-16T13:00:38.687-05:002011-05-16T13:00:38.687-05:00Steve, fidelity to the Church demands that we refu...Steve, fidelity to the Church demands that we refuse to embrace this kind of blind NeoCath ultramontanism. Our duty of obedience sometimes demands disobedience, especially regarding anything that reeks of modernism as does the ordinary/extraordinary nonsense. And I believe that Benedict is counting on our rejection of such nonsense. He does it simply for strategic reasons, to placate the rank modernists around him and throughout the Church. He knows this silliness will drop away after the restoration. He's very savvy. For example: <br /><br />http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-1031-mccall-fellay.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-33185913706147634262011-05-16T12:42:35.974-05:002011-05-16T12:42:35.974-05:00Sorry, Jackson.
I follow the terminology given by...Sorry, Jackson.<br /><br />I follow the terminology given by Pope Benedict XVI. <br /><br />I am not a sedevacantist.<br />If you don't like the Pope's officially promulgated terminology, I doubt you are particularly Catholic. If you are not particularly Catholic, you are incapable of judging what is or is not Catholic.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-68196076081875294542011-05-16T12:40:56.132-05:002011-05-16T12:40:56.132-05:00Simply to accept the "Ordinary Form"/&qu...Simply to accept the "Ordinary Form"/"Extraordinary Form" terminology is, ipso facto, to cease to be a traditionalist. Reject this Orwellianism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-51884871522820951742011-05-15T08:34:18.735-05:002011-05-15T08:34:18.735-05:00The end of the NO Mass will come like this: a prie...The end of the NO Mass will come like this: a priest wearing a Porky Pig mask will come forward and say, "Thaaat's All Folks!" If they can haqve Clown Masses, I'm sure they can send off the NO with a PP Mass!Steve "scotju" Daltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17864544146213840928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-85594006661376202602011-05-14T22:29:08.386-05:002011-05-14T22:29:08.386-05:00Oh - ok.Oh - ok.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-13222591620834510042011-05-14T22:14:52.241-05:002011-05-14T22:14:52.241-05:00In this case, Steve, I think you're reading mo...In this case, Steve, I think <i>you're</i> reading more into my comment than I wrote. The difference is whether the priest is celebrating <i>with</i> the people or <i>sine populo</i> — by himself. If he's celebrating the TLM <i>by himself</i>, then the restriction to the OF during the Triduum still obtains. But if he has people who want to attend the TLM, then he can have both OF and EF during the Triduum. We really do agree on this point, and I apologize if my phrasing led you to think otherwise.Anthony S. Laynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14807873592896092136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-32575774156385057042011-05-14T22:00:50.997-05:002011-05-14T22:00:50.997-05:00Our Latin Mass Community is officially part of a p...Our Latin Mass Community is officially part of a parish community that includes the Latin Mass Community a Novus Ordo community that worships at the same church as us and another Novus Ordo community at a different church building...so our parish did in fact have two different sets of Triduum Masses this year, one at each church building. Which is obviously different than celebrating twice at the same church but it is still within the same parish. <br /><br />I really haven't missed the Novus lectionary since coming to the TLM...but I wonder how much of that is I don't miss the NAB translation? <br /><br />I hope you're right and this signals a shift back to the Mass of the Ages. I hear that the TLM will be said at St. Peter's this weekend.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05441415866621151610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-88326837225368674982011-05-14T20:08:08.813-05:002011-05-14T20:08:08.813-05:00Anthony,
I think you may be reading more into thi...Anthony,<br /><br />I think you may be reading more into this than is there.<br /><br />The document is talking about the rights of the faithful who have an attachment to the EF. Their rights are so strong that the parish is obliged even to offer the Triduum in both forms.<br /><br />This does NOT derogate from the right of the priest to offer the Triduum in both forms regardless. The pastor doesn't NEED a stable group to start offering the Tridentine Rite. He can do it any time he feels the urge, up to and including offering the Triduum according to the old rite, if he wants.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-51732001005569400652011-05-14T08:20:47.919-05:002011-05-14T08:20:47.919-05:00At my home parish, we offered the Triduum accordin...At my home parish, we offered the Triduum according to the EF. We were a cluster parish. St. Jahosphat has (at least for the last few years I've been aware) had the Triduum.<br /><br />My problem with the New Lectionary is more the constant omissions. You remove 90% of those omissions, and you have a VASTLY superior lectionary.<br /><br />I also don't think we are seeing "the end of the Novus Ordo." Yet we will begin to see "the end of the Novus Ordo AS WE KNOW IT."<br /><br />The main thing from this Instruction is a warning to those liberal bishops/clerics who thought this would just go away: this isn't going away. And we are just getting started.Kevin Tierneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09772355448244959559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-4044014882488182112011-05-14T07:29:41.515-05:002011-05-14T07:29:41.515-05:00Hey, Steve!
Not to throw cold water on your hopes...Hey, Steve!<br /><br />Not to throw cold water on your hopes or anything, but: The paragraph you quote from <i>SP</i> speaks solely in terms of the priest celebrating the EF sine populo, and I believe would still obtain if the priest didn't have that stable group. Only when the stable group comes in does the option to have a Triduum in the EF kick in.<br /><br />I don't think this bends the conclusion or anything, but it's worth pointing out.Anthony S. Laynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14807873592896092136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-81948686819161904022011-05-13T15:40:25.754-05:002011-05-13T15:40:25.754-05:00You had TWO Triduum celebrations?
Two Easter Vigil...You had TWO Triduum celebrations?<br />Two Easter Vigils?<br />That's exceedingly strange...<br /><br />As for Fr. Z's objections, I really couldn't tell you what they are.<br /><br />When I inquired, he simply mocked the idea. When I remonstrated him, pointed to the documents and asked for a real explanation, he attacked me for being uncharitable, judgemental and daring to question him. Then he essentially threatened to ban me. <br /><br />I am really tired of that kind of clericalism, so I scrubbed him from all my websites and I refuse to link to him again.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-44522648672737581332011-05-13T15:32:27.212-05:002011-05-13T15:32:27.212-05:00I guess my parish is in a special situation since ...I guess my parish is in a special situation since this past triduum there were both a <i>Novus Ordo</i> and EF triduums.<br /><br /><i>where confirmation is done around the age of eight, immediately before first Eucharist.</i><br /><br />They do it at age 3 in Mexico... What is Fr. Z's rationale? ThanksGeremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-17902832406164955592011-05-13T15:29:33.326-05:002011-05-13T15:29:33.326-05:00Alan,
It was theoretically possible for a non-FSS...Alan,<br /><br />It was theoretically possible for a non-FSSP parish to offer a traditional Triduum, but since no parish would have considered doing TWO Triduums, in practice, that was NEVER done.<br /><br />Instead, in a parish that offered both forms of the Mass, the Triduum would be done only according to the Novus Ordo.<br /><br />I don't really read Fr. Z. anymore. He seems to be opposed to the restored order of the sacraments, where confirmation is done around the age of eight, immediately before first Eucharist. <br /><br />I found his public attitude on that to be simply unconscionable, so I don't read him any longer nor do I direct readers to him.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-87615703477740835462011-05-13T15:25:03.945-05:002011-05-13T15:25:03.945-05:00Actually, the new lectionary is a triumph of the f...Actually, the new lectionary is a triumph of the four senses of Scripture. <br /><br />If you want to learn how to read Scripture the same way the <a href="http://bridegroompress.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=81" rel="nofollow">Fathers and Doctors of the Church did</a>, the new lectionary is really superb at bringing those senses out. The OT, Psalm and Gospel readings are ALWAYS tied together on Sundays and major feast days, while they are almost always tied together on weekdays. <br /><br />Now, virtually no priest I know of actually gives a homily that elucidates the correct way to read Scripture, but that's the fault of the individual priests and bishops, not of the new lectionary.<br /><br />It's the only thing I miss from the Novus Ordo. The traditional readings are really kind of thin gruel in comparison.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-32011685785804633262011-05-13T14:54:46.215-05:002011-05-13T14:54:46.215-05:00Wasn't it possible to do Extraordinary Form tr...Wasn't it possible to do Extraordinary Form triduums even before this Instruction? Or could they only done by the Ecclesia Dei organizations like the FSSP?<br /><br />Also, I love how this document, even in the English translation, uses the word <i>mens</i>: "...always in agreement with the <i>mens</i> of the Holy Father.." Well, I have heard Pope Benedict wants an Extraordinary Form mass in every parish. That is his <i>mens</i>, and that is the goal. We are getting closer to it.Geremiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11812810552682098086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-74651068006344509252011-05-13T14:08:17.133-05:002011-05-13T14:08:17.133-05:00And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find tha...<i>And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the NO's cycle of liturgical readings will eventually be incorporated into the traditional form of the Mass and the older form of readings dispensed with.</i><br />Marry, God forfend!<br /><br />That would be a horrible mistake, as bad as adopting the "expanded lectionary" was in the first place. <br /><br /><i>Although this document breathes not a word about it, I think it is safe to say that extraordinary ministers, communion in the hand, communion under both species, ridiculous "liturgical" music, all of that is now being readied for the chopping block</i><br />Actually, all of those are mentioned, at least obliquely, in the explicit derogation of anything issued since 1962 that is in conflict with the norms and rubrics of 1962.<br /><br />FrZ's analysis:<br />http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/quaeruntur-universae-ecclesiae-and-novus-ordo-practices/Flambeauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133131881423202010noreply@blogger.com