tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post2497430812818143865..comments2024-03-20T16:30:09.690-05:00Comments on The Fifth Column: Getting A Clear VisionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-73865572213274055702012-05-19T18:13:51.161-05:002012-05-19T18:13:51.161-05:00Well, here's yet another person's opinion ...Well, here's yet another person's opinion of what the Fatima message is.<br /><br />I wonder which version is right?Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-998987227360454182012-05-19T18:01:01.080-05:002012-05-19T18:01:01.080-05:00Prof. Michael Barber (who has a blog at The Sacred...Prof. Michael Barber (who has a blog at The Sacred Page and heads up the Theology Department at John Paul the Great Catholic University in San Diego) laments the fact that so many people in the Church know everything about Fatima or Medjugorje, but have never read the Book of Ezra. <br /><br />Of course, it would be far better if most Catholics read the Scriptures, the Catholic Catechism, the Fathers of the Church, the lives and the writings of the saints, but they don't.<br /><br />In the face of this illiteracy Our Blessed Mother comes at Fatima with a very succinct, simple version of the gospels, saying that sin brings punishment, therefore repentance and prayer are necessary. You are right of course that no one has to believe this, but doesn't it seem better to you that so many people do? <br /><br />One of her titles is Queen of Prophets, and prophecy is a charism which Scripture (Public revelation) encourages: "I would that you could all speak in tongues, but still more that you could prophesy"; "Despise not prophecies"; "Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" <br /><br />But in New Testament times, after the canon is settled, what are we to make of prophecies? "Test everything and hold fast to that which is good" is the approach that Divine Revelation recommends in 1 Thess 5: 21.<br /><br />When we test Medjugorje, it seems eminently discardable, but Our Lady's prophecies at Fatima seem worth holding fast, even if we don't HAVE to believe them. <br /><br />Popcorn? Rather it seems like the essence of the gospel (repentance, obedience, Heaven and Hell, prayer, devotion to the Blessed Mother, etc.) served up in a fashion that the Catholics of our time find very palatable, nourishing and sustaining.<br /><br />You are quite right that no one has to believe any of it, but the fact that so many have seems to have borne much good fruit. To take just one example, there are many more people at Saturday morning Mass on First Saturday than any other Saturday of the month.<br /><br />Perhaps much more emphasis should be put on the fact that no one has to believe this for their eternal salvation, but in the face of its nutritive qualities this attitude reminds me of ee cumming's observation, "America is a free country because nobody HAS to eat." That we don't have to believe this doesn't at all mean that it is better not to. Wouldn't that fall under the rubric of despising prophecies?<br /><br />However, as far as its use in RCIA, evangelization, etc., you are quite right. It is not the place to start.Lee Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506547355314136320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-44942024691920055332012-05-16T13:20:27.352-05:002012-05-16T13:20:27.352-05:00Bruce, your wife is not alone.
I ran parish RCIA ...Bruce, your wife is not alone.<br /><br />I ran parish RCIA in several dioceses for years. None of the candidates were ever comfortable with private revelation.<br /><br />It was always a relief to them when I pointed out that they could ignore all of it quite safely.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-3802357432662429582012-05-16T12:44:17.486-05:002012-05-16T12:44:17.486-05:00For what it's worth, my wife converted to Cath...For what it's worth, my wife converted to Catholicism from Born Again Evangelical and she gets creeped out when the Catholic Bible study ladies and others go on and on about Fatima, First Fridays, wearing a scapular, and other devotions. Her view is that, for many devout protestant Christians, the fixation on private revelation overshadows the reasonableness of the Catholic faith for manywho would otherwise be open to it. So there's that.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17153868693582723934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-46161317106587977692012-05-16T10:22:44.254-05:002012-05-16T10:22:44.254-05:00I'm not sure why this long diatribe against Fa...I'm not sure why this long diatribe against Fatima. Those of us who try to pray the rosary daily are aware that Fatima is private revelation. It's not meant to replace the Bible, or the duties of our Faith, such as attending Mass on Sundays and Holydays, it only confirms the revelations of scripture. The rosary itself is a meditation on scripture. The prayers and mysteries are either directly from the Bible or based on it. We should think of Mary's message as a gift.MDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11751175070058668235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-45962464630880865402012-05-15T22:16:52.565-05:002012-05-15T22:16:52.565-05:00It's really too much.
You build up straw men a...It's really too much.<br />You build up straw men and then push them over.<br />It's ok.<br />I've said my piece and am thankful for the forum you provide.<br />It's time to go pray the rosary, and meditate upon the Passion of my Lord, as today is Tuesday.daddylambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05714082478988698675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-66744530401784778762012-05-15T20:01:16.041-05:002012-05-15T20:01:16.041-05:00If you really loved Mary, you would learn about he...If you really loved Mary, you would learn about her Son.<br /><br />Your refusal to study the deposit of faith or learn the doctrines of the Church indicate you don't really give a fig about Mary.<br /><br />You just love the IDEA of being in love with Mary. You don't actually do it, because you don't love her Son enough to learn about Him.<br /><br />She points to her Son, and you keep saying "Oh, I'm too stupid to learn that stuff. Just give me another book on Fatima, Mary."<br /><br />If you love her so much, why don't you listen to her?Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-6334826726054959622012-05-15T19:58:37.130-05:002012-05-15T19:58:37.130-05:00Daddylamb,
You continue to betray your ignorance....Daddylamb,<br /><br />You continue to betray your ignorance.<br /><br />The rosary is taken entirely from Scripture. The Hail Mary and Our Father are nothing but bits of Scripture arranged together. Scripture is part of the deposit of faith. The Rosary, being Scripture, is part of the deposit.<br /><br />Your have offered yet a fourth version of "the message of Fatima". After talking with all you Fatima promoters, I honestly don't know what the message is anymore. You've convinced me that the confusion is even greater than I supposed.<br /><br />The Church absolutely disagrees with everything you say. Love for God and love for the ones God honors is necessary for salvation. <br /><br />Fatima is private revelation. Fatima is not necessary for salvation.<br /><br />You are quite wrong.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-37153829621620116962012-05-15T19:52:59.470-05:002012-05-15T19:52:59.470-05:00Mr. Kellmeyer, I think you can put your considerab...Mr. Kellmeyer, I think you can put your considerable intellect to work more efficaciously.<br /><br />Assumption: Your main purpose in writing publicly is to further the goal of Holy Mother Church, namely, the salvation of souls. Promoting Fatima will not detract from the goal.<br /><br />Claim: Private revelation saves souls.<br /><br />Example offered: The rosary, not part of the deposit of faith, not in practice when St John the Apostle died, yet the greatest weapon we have at our disposal outside the sacraments, one that everyone and anyone can and should use to glorify God and combat evil.<br /><br />Just as parents work to save the souls of their children, so does private revelation, not through dispensing sanctifying grace directly, but in guiding souls towards obtain and keeping it, while avoiding sin.<br /><br />The message of Fatima is simple: Be obedient to your Holy Mother, her will is one and the same with her Son’s and the Father’s. If the world heeds the message of Fatima, there will be peace.<br /><br />It is because of the ardent love and devotion I have for my Queen, my Mother, that I do protest your words. You cannot talk about Fatima without the Blessed Virgin Mary, and you cannot attack Fatima without showing an imperfect love for the Blessed Virgin Mary.<br /><br />Hence I must insist: America needs Fatima!daddylambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05714082478988698675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-39609095650541976902012-05-15T17:24:38.191-05:002012-05-15T17:24:38.191-05:00Daddylamb,
Anyone reading through this thread kno...Daddylamb,<br /><br />Anyone reading through this thread knows what you claimed. All the evidence is there.<br /><br />Similarly, everyone reading through this thread can see that none of the Fatima supporters can even agree on what the central message of Fatima is.<br /><br />I don't see how anyone can "promote Fatima" given the basic disagreements even its supporters have displayed here. <br /><br />As for private revelation saving souls, the Church specifically denies that when She says that private revelation is not part of the deposit of faith.<br /><br />The deposit of faith, which includes the sacraments and sanctifying grace the sacraments dispense, is what saves souls.<br /><br />Private revelation is not necessary. Not even Fatima.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-73783471620450287912012-05-15T17:05:13.277-05:002012-05-15T17:05:13.277-05:00The original claim in this commentary thread was t...The original claim in this commentary thread was that the Rosary is not public revelation, but private revelation.<br /><br />It is incorrect to state my position as 'received through a vision'.<br /><br />As it is incorrect to say my position on the message of Fatima is:<br />"Daddylamb says it is the conversion of Russia, the annihilation of nations and the apostasy within the Church."<br /><br />The idea proposed is very simple.<br />Private revelations save souls.<br /><br />Unduly dismissing them is detrimental to the church militant and the church suffering.<br /><br />I know that you don't unduly dismiss the rosary, becuase you noted it is prayed nightly in your home. You are to be commended an imitated in your devotion to the BVM by leading your family in this most powerful of devotions.<br /><br />America needs Fatima!daddylambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05714082478988698675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-17573694635781142722012-05-15T15:44:12.373-05:002012-05-15T15:44:12.373-05:00Oh, and Daddylamb, did you notice that you fed bac...Oh, and Daddylamb, did you notice that you fed back to me the VERY SAME DOCUMENT I referenced to you when I pointed out that Pope Leo did NOT say St. Dominic received the Rosary in a vision?<br /><br />Of COURSE you didn't notice that!<br /><br />You were too lazy to click the link I gave you!Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-22408079012224686772012-05-15T15:42:46.455-05:002012-05-15T15:42:46.455-05:00Thank you, Daddylamb!
I think the relevant quote ...Thank you, Daddylamb!<br /><br />I think the relevant quote you want to claim is "Guided, in fact, by divine inspiration and grace "<br /><br />Nothing about a vision there.<br />Inspiration is all it mentions.<br /><br />Try again.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-28749023339622171602012-05-15T15:37:58.961-05:002012-05-15T15:37:58.961-05:00SUPREMI
APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO
3 . . .founder of the...SUPREMI<br />APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO<br /><br />3 . . .founder of the Dominican Order . . . trusting wholly to that devotion which he was the first to institute under the name of the Holy Rosary. . . Guided, in fact, by divine inspiration and grace . . .<br /><br />Who: St Domonic<br />What: The Holy Rosary<br />Why: Divine Inspiration<br /><br />the above is modified for brevity, not a direct quote, but a spliced quotedaddylambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05714082478988698675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-44324693691010191212012-05-15T15:05:41.760-05:002012-05-15T15:05:41.760-05:00Ok, here's another couple of questions.
What ...Ok, here's another couple of questions.<br /><br />What is the Third Secret or do you not know because it has not been revealed?<br /><br />Has Russia been consecrated to Mary's Immaculate Heart in accord with the Daddylamb's version of the Fatima message?Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-85686411944044583822012-05-15T15:00:14.705-05:002012-05-15T15:00:14.705-05:00So, Ellen, you say the message of Fatima is "...So, Ellen, you say the message of Fatima is "conversion to God".<br /><br />Fr. Apostoli apparently doesn't agree, since according to you, he says “The First Five Saturdays Devotion is the most neglected, but the most essential part of Our Lady’s message"<br /><br />Obviously, someone doing the 5 Saturdays is already converted.<br /><br />Daddylamb says it is the conversion of Russia, the annihilation of nations and the apostasy within the Church.<br /><br />So, we have three people weighing in - Ellen, Fr. Apostoli, and Daddylamb.<br /><br />And none of you can agree on what the message of Fatima is.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-75705675686156917312012-05-15T14:56:35.396-05:002012-05-15T14:56:35.396-05:00Daddylamb, you give me the text and the reference ...Daddylamb, you give me the text and the reference for where you THINK Leo XIII spoke of Dominic receiving the Rosary in a vision - all the references you think this happened.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-89401455474708045052012-05-15T14:52:04.426-05:002012-05-15T14:52:04.426-05:00Ellen,
I think Mr. Kellmeyer is asking the questi...Ellen,<br /><br />I think Mr. Kellmeyer is asking the questin about the conversion of Russia and the annihilation of nations and the secrets and smoke of satan and of apotasy inside the church, up to the highest levels.<br /><br />If there were no prophecy but only 'repent and convert' associated with Fatima, I don't think Mr. Kellmeyer would have written as he did.daddylambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05714082478988698675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-86086951487469893652012-05-15T14:44:06.254-05:002012-05-15T14:44:06.254-05:00From the Blue Army (World Apostolate of Fatima):
...From the Blue Army (World Apostolate of Fatima):<br /><br />Washington, NJ – Laity, experts and relatives of the three Portuguese shepherd children to whom the Blessed Mother appeared in 1917 gathered for the most important Fatima conference in history this past spring. The World Apostolate of Fatima (WAF) organized this exclusive conference in Fatima, Portugal for the intentions of: world peace, the salvation of souls, and the strengthening of the Church.<br />Fifteen world-renowned Fatima experts delivered speeches and led discussions with less than 200 lay people during the week-long conference at the WAF - owned Domus Pacis Hotel.<br />Attendees gained spiritual, historical and familial insights about the Marian apparition of Fatima in accordance with the conference objective: “To further prepare us to help others learn, live and spread Our Lady of Fatima’s message of hope, peace and salvation. To understand the problems we face in the world today and how to solve them in the context of Our Lady of Fatima’s message.”<br />“The real message of the conference was a renewal of the call to heed Our Lady’s message of Fatima,” said Fr. Andrew Apostali, C.F.R., conference host and author of Fatima for Today. “Pope Benedict XVI has said that the message of Fatima is by no means over. We are threatened with war. We are threatened with secularism’s sense to suffocate all Christian values and all sense of the presence of God.<br />“Our Lady has given us a plan of what we should do,” Apostali continued. “The First Five Saturdays Devotion is the most neglected, but the most essential part of Our Lady’s message.” <br /><br />[First Five Saturday devotees go to Confession, receive Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and meditate for 15 minutes on the mysteries of the Rosary on the first Saturday of five consecutive months.]Ellen Wironkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15037753678014941848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-43923396677203640162012-05-15T14:19:11.277-05:002012-05-15T14:19:11.277-05:00"Fatima, in its message and its blessing, is ..."Fatima, in its message and its blessing, is conversion to God. Here in this place we can feel and bear witness to the redemption of humankind through the intercession and help of Our Lady whose foot crushed, and will always crush, the head of the serpent of old" (Pope John Paul II, Greetings during the Marian Vigil at the Shrine of Fatima, May 12, 1991).<br /><br /><br />"The evangelical call to repentance and conversion contained in Our Lady of Fatima’s message remains ever relevant. It is even more relevant now than it was 65 years ago. It is now more urgent" (Pope John Paul II, Homily at the Mass in the Shrine of Our Lady of Fatima, May 13, 1982).<br /><br /><br />www.laici.va/content/laici/en/<br />.../world-apostolate-of-fatima<br />.html<br /><br />Pope John Paul II describes the Fatima message as "ever relevant" and "more urgent" than ever before.<br /><br />The word "urgent" is defined as, "Compelling or requiring immediate action or attention; imperative; pressing."<br /><br />Fatima isn't needed? Not according to Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul II!Ellen Wironkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15037753678014941848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-80351405406418021892012-05-15T14:12:55.496-05:002012-05-15T14:12:55.496-05:00Supremi Apostolatus Officio
Superiore Anno
Vi È Be...Supremi Apostolatus Officio<br />Superiore Anno<br />Vi È Ben Noto<br />Octobri Mense<br />Magnae Dei Matris<br />Laetitiae Sanctae<br />Iucunda Semper Expectatione<br />Adiutricem<br />Fidentem Piumque Animum<br />Augustissimae Virginis Mariae<br />Diuturni Temporis<br /><br />Mr. Kellmeyer, the good Pope Leo XIII wrote much about the rosary, usually in september. How close to the words, "The BVM gave St Dominic the rosary in a vision" do you need?<br /><br />If a reasonable person interpreted the words of the Holy Father as the rosary being given to St Dominic by the BVM, would that be sufficient?daddylambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05714082478988698675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-49398772568205679222012-05-15T13:54:10.832-05:002012-05-15T13:54:10.832-05:00Ok, Ellen.
What is the "Fatima message"?...Ok, Ellen.<br />What is the "Fatima message"?<br /><br />You all keep ranting on about it, and you don't think I'm trustworthy, so I'm not going to inject myself into this. <br /><br />This is all you - I want you to tell me what you think the Fatima message is.<br /><br />What is the Fatima message?Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-25250893372894490992012-05-15T13:46:56.461-05:002012-05-15T13:46:56.461-05:00Daddylamb,
Here is the link to Pope Leo XIII Ency...Daddylamb,<br /><br />Here is the link to Pope Leo XIII Encyclical on the Rosary and St. Dominic.<br />http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio_en.html<br /><br />Nowhere in it does he say Dominic received the Rosary in a vision from Mary. <br /><br />The Rosary is a fine prayer, my family prays it every nice, St. Dominic certainly spread its use throughout Europe. <br /><br />But nowhere in that encyclical does Leo XIII say Dominic received it in a vision from Mary.Steve Kellmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509461318016670424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-44428359078737961022012-05-15T13:46:46.752-05:002012-05-15T13:46:46.752-05:00On May 13, 1991, Pope John Paul II said that, &quo...On May 13, 1991, Pope John Paul II said that, "The Message of Fatima is more relevant and more urgent" than when Our Lady first appeared. There is, then, a real need for the Fatima message.<br /><br />If it were not necessary, Pope John Paul II would not have described it as "more relevant and more urgent."Michael Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17489929697997071892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5774317.post-29949549587401515142012-05-15T13:39:25.725-05:002012-05-15T13:39:25.725-05:00The Holy Father spoke these words: "For us, F...The Holy Father spoke these words: "For us, Fatima is a sign of the presence of faith, of the fact that it is precisely from the little ones that faith gains new strength, one which is not limited to the little ones but has a message for the entire world and touches history here and now, and sheds light on this history . . . Even now there is tribulation, in every conceivable form, and power threatens to trample down faith. Even now, then, there is a need for the answer about which the Mother of God spoke to the children at Fatima."<br /><br />He spoke of a real need for the Fatima message. But in your pride, you cannot acknowledge that you were wrong.<br /><br />You write, "He was speaking as a private theologian, not as the Pope." He is still the Vicar of Christ and a world-class theologian. Which is far more than you are or ever will be.<br /><br />You can use your smoke-and-mirrors tactics all you want. But the Vicar of Christ said that the Fatima message is needed today. And all your rants will not change that fact.Ellen Wironkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15037753678014941848noreply@blogger.com