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Monday, December 08, 2008

Two Must-Read Books

How did an Austrian become Chancellor of Germany?
How did Barack Obama get elected President of the United States?

We haven't heard the last of the controversy.

Two must read books for the upcoming years:

William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich

UPDATE:
And don't forget Milton Mayer's They Thought They Were Free.



13 comments:

Madcap said...

Yes, I've read both of those books. We are watching our society fall, no doubt about it. I would like to recommend one other book: Eric Voegelin's Hitler and The Germans. He has a different take than the other two mentioned, in that he asks the question, "what is the spiritual condition of a people who knowingly elect despots as their leaders?"

This is a great question. What then is our spiritual condition? Disordered to say the least.

We live in the age of the Gnostic.

Madcap said...

Did you get a chance to see this from Obama? I thought it was a joke when I first started watching it.
http://www.thoughtsongod.com/?p=1579

Anonymous said...

I think Obama is doing a fine job so far. Give him a break, people. You may not have voted for him, but he (soon) President to all of us.

You're all coming across like extremists with these books and such. Do you truly live in such black and white worlds, worlds where there is absolute right and wrong? Where there are not shades of grey?

Where you cannot give someone a chance?

Chill out. At least he's taking action to try to shore things up. Look at the retard we currently have for president and his complete inaction.

Patrick said...

The world can only be in shades of grey if you don't understand how things directly pertain to you.

You should know all of the rights and wrongs/goods and evils in your own life. If you do, you should then know them for the larger world as well. Shades of grey only exist when you aren't concerned with the outcome.

Madcap said...

"I think Obama is doing a fine job so far."

He does not have the job yet,so I agree with you. He's doing just fine!

"Do you truly live in such black and white worlds,"

Yes,and so do you.You just might not realize it.
This is why I know the outcome.
http://www.thoughtsongod.com/?p=744
Communism: The Promise and the Reality -The Not So ‘Great Leap Forward’

Madcap said...

To Anonymous,

My latest post has a video that you should watch in helping you understand why Obama is a problem. It's black and white.
Is He Or Is He Not A Natural Born Citizen? Our Constitutional Crisis
http://www.thoughtsongod.com/?p=1732

Jordanes said...

Madcap, there is no reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Honolulu, and therefore qualifies as what has always been known as a "natural born citizen" -- he was born on American soil. Donofrio's argument that because he once held dual citizenship, therefore he wasn't a "natural born" citizen, is an interesting bit of constitutional revisionism. The Constitution is silent about people holding dual citizenship being disqualified from the presidency, and although American law does not mention dual citizenship, neither does it forbid it. (I think that's wrong, and the law should be clarified so that dual citizenship is definitively excluded, but the fact is there's nothing on the books at this time making it illegal.)

As for claims that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, that his certification of live birth that says he was born in Hawaii might be fake, etc., all of that has been investigated and definitively debunked. His stepgrandmother never said she witnessed his birth in Kenya -- she was referring to her stepson, Obama Sr. Again, Obama's COLB doesn't show any signs of having been forged, and two local newspapers in August 1961 published the Hawaii Bureau of Health's registration of Obama's birth just a few days after he was born, with no indication that it was an out-of-state birth that had been registered. (As if it's even remotely plausible that Obama's mother would have hopped an international flight with her newborn the day after giving birth in Kenya, rushing home to make sure her son's birth was registered in Hawaii.) Finally, Hawaii state officials have vouched for Obama's COLB and have dismissed assertions that speculations that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii or wasn't a natural born citizen as ridiculous.

As for Obama's Indonesian residency, yes, is possible he had become an Indonesian citizen when he was six years old. However, American law stipulates that only if a U.S. citizen formally and deliberately renounces his citizenship can he lose his citizenship. Little minor children cannot do that, so even if Obama used to be an Indonesian citizen, it didn't affect his U.S. citizenship at all -- and anyway he doesn't hold dual citizenship with any other country at this time, so Donofrio and Wrotnowski had/have no case that can be adjudicated.

There's simply not the slightest shred of evidence that Obama was born anywhere but in Hawaii, and for that reason there is zero chance of any of these lawsuits getting anywhere. If there had been anything to this conspiracy theory, the evidence would have turned up by now: Hillary or McCain or Corsi or Berg would have found proof that he was born in Kenya.

There's nothing to this. It's time to drop this and get on with the harsh reality of an Obama presidency, with all the grievous evils that will unleash. The Obama birth certificate conspiracy theory is just making a lot of conservatives look really, really stupid. You know, just because the Communists were and are conspiring to spread their evil everwhere doesn't mean we should take John Birchers seriously, and just because Obama is manifestly unqualified -- disqualified -- to be president doesn't mean we should take "Birthers" (as they've beginning to be called) seriously.

Madcap said...

"There's simply not the slightest shred of evidence that Obama was born anywhere but in Hawaii"

There's not one shred of evidence that he was. To this day Obama has yet to produce his birth certificate. As I said in my post, all of this could be put to rest by one simple act on Obama's part. Why has he not done this? I don't know. Did you not read my post?
http://www.thoughtsongod.com/?p=1732

The birth certificate issue is only one part. His father was not a U.S. citizen.Therefore, he is NOT a natural born citizen regardless of his place of birth.

I'm not hell bent on this issue, I don't think anything will come of it. But, I do feel that the points raise are legitimate, and that Obama has not been forthcoming. What happened to the "more transparency in government" obama was promising?

To dismiss this out of hand as you have,is to be blind to the legitimacy of the facts.

Another conference is set for this Friday before the court.Obviously some of the justices feel differently than you do.

Jordanes said...

There's not one shred of evidence that he was.

Except for his COLB, the two newspaper birth announcements, and the confirmations of Hawaiian state officials, that is.

To this day Obama has yet to produce his birth certificate.

Wrong. He produced a valid COLB, which is sufficient for him to get a passport with -- and you can't get a U.S. passport unless you can show you're a U.S. citizen.

Of course he has not produced the original, long-form birth certificate, but that is unimportant, since quite a lot of people can't produce their original, long-form birth certificates either. In one of his books he mentions chancing upon it in an old book, but there's no guarantee he still has his long form, and it doesn't matter if he doesn't any more. The short-form birth certificate, the COLB, more than suffices.

As I said in my post, all of this could be put to rest by one simple act on Obama's part.

No, it will never be put to rest. Even if he got a court to give the State of Hawaii permission for the vault certificate to be shown in public, there will remain a vast crowd of people who will continue to believe that it's all a conspiracy, that the vault copy is fake -- even if it is authenticated by sound and trusted experts. It is impossible to convince people who want to believe something for which there is no evidence.

Why has he not done this?

Who knows, but the most likely explanation is that since he doesn't have to, and since he naturally would find it absurd the way the conspiracy theorists keep raising the bar every time he hurdles it and demand he jump even higher next time, it would make more sense to refuse to play along. (Though I can't help but suspect that he's probably getting a lot of enjoyment out of seeing so many conservatives make themselves look silly.)

His father was not a U.S. citizen.Therefore, he is NOT a natural born citizen regardless of his place of birth.

Yeah, that's what Donofrio and Wrotnowski have said, but they haven't a leg to stand on. It is settled law that anyone born on American soil is a U.S. citizen simply by virtue of where he was born. Even if one or both parents are foreign citizens, a baby born on U.S. soul is a U.S. citizen. If the British Commonwealth formerly extended citizenship to Obama Sr.'s children, it's irrelevant to whether or not Obama Jr. is a natural born citizen. And anyway, as I've said, his foreign citizenship automatically expired when he turned 21, since he took no measures to keep it. Obama does not have dual citizenship at this time, so there is no legal basis by which Donofrio and Wrotnowski could bring an action to law.

What happened to the "more transparency in government" obama was promising?

Obama's goverment won't be any more transparent than any previous administrations. Much less so, we can only expect.

To dismiss this out of hand as you have,is to be blind to the legitimacy of the facts.

I didn't dismiss this out of hand. When I first heard the concerns and objections about Obama's citizenship back in August and September, I was troubled and wondered if there was something to all this. But the more I looked, the more of my questions were satisfactorily answered. As someone who's been involved in genealogical research since I was 12, I can say that there is more than ample evidence to establish Obama's place of birth and U.S. citizenship.

Another conference is set for this Friday before the court.Obviously some of the justices feel differently than you do.

Nope. As I've pointed out here before, referring a renewed petition for writ of certoriari to conference is what the Supreme Court Justices usually do. Perhaps it means the Justice who referred it to conference thinks there's something to it, but as a rule all it means is that the Justice doesn't want the petitioner to keep applying and reapplying until he runs out of Justices. Referring it to the full court for conference expedites the matter, because in that case there must be four Justices to agree to grant certoriari instead of just one Justice: usually the full court comes out of conference and declines to hear the appeal, as happened with Donofrio. We can expect the same thing to happen with Wrotnowski's case, and with Berg's case whenever it is referred to conference too, and so on.

Madcap said...

"No, it will never be put to rest."

It would for me. I can't speak for anyone else, and for sure many people will continue to chase after the wind no matter what.

There is a difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen. My wife is a citizen, I am a natural born citizen.

In the end you are more than likely correct that nothing will come of this. I'll wait till after Friday to see what the court determines. I do have some faith that they will do what is correct under the law. I do however wish one or more of the justices would state the reasoning behind their decision.

The Blago problem could turn out to be fruitful. Pat Fitzgerald is a no holds barred type of guy. Pay to Play is no joke. Obama looked rather strange in his press conference today. Will Blago roll on Obamo?

Jordanes said...

There is a difference between a citizen and a natural born citizen. My wife is a citizen, I am a natural born citizen.

Obama is a natural born citizen too, based on the only "paper trail" we're aware of.

I do however wish one or more of the justices would state the reasoning behind their decision.

My take on this, for what it's worth, is that when the Justices decline to take an appeal and make no comment, the reason would be pretty clear and obvious so that no comment would be needed. Among the most common reasons for declining to hear an appeal is lack of jurisdiction: sometimes the issue in the case is not something the Supreme Court has any authority over. Another common reason is that they found no error in the lower court's ruling. With Donofrio's case, I suspect it is because the Justice's concurred with the grounds for dismissal by the lower court, but I've seen lawyers on other weblogs who have said that the way Donofrio's case was framed, it was probably a matter for the states, not the federal courts. Wrotnowski's case is similar to Donofrio's, but is reportedly framed differently and perhaps more "cleanly" than Donofrio's, but it too was dismissed by a lower court it's normal for a higher court to uphold a prior dismissal.

The Blago problem could turn out to be fruitful. Pat Fitzgerald is a no holds barred type of guy.

Yeah, he's a Lefty, but he goes after the crooks no matter what party they're in. And Illinois has plenty of crooks to go after.

Pay to Play is no joke.

It just shows how sick and twisted Blago is, to continue his criminal wheeling and dealing even though he knew the Cops were looking into his corruption and were coming to get him. That's almost psychopathic -- no conscience. Or extreme self-delusion and hubris on a breathtaking scale. Everyone knew it was a matter of time before he'd be indicted, but he just didn't care. I figured it would be after he left office, but he actually tried to sell a Senate seat. I could well believe that certain people wanted Fitzgerald to move against Blago right away, before he did any more damage to Obama and to the Democratic machine in Illinois.

Obama looked rather strange in his press conference today. Will Blago roll on Obamo?

Obama is every bit as tainted and corrupt as Blago and Rezko. He's a brazen liar and opportunist who will throw even his friends under the bus. Sure would be great if Blago were to turn state's evidence against Obama. During the campaign he had the MSM covering for him, though, and they will be very reluctant to let the truth about Obama's "change" come to light. I expect what will happen is that Obama will go on to become president but later face continual embarrassing revelations until finally even his friends and allies will have to throw him under the bus the way he throws his inconvenient friends under the bus -- and then we may have another round of impeachment hearings, especially if the Republicans can get their acts together and recapture the House and Senate. It was like that for Blago's predecessor Lyin' Ryan: the revelations about his crimes came out during the campaign, but he got elected anyway: scandal swirled about him all through his governorship, and he was indicted after he left office. There may be something like that in store for Obama.

Anonymous said...

I truly cannot believe the arguments posted above for thinking in black and white vs. shades of grey. Your thinking is so far out there that you don't even see how far out you are. This tells me a lot about the personalities of Patrick and Madcap. They are so fixed in their thinking; the blinders are on just a bit too tight, but they will never acknowledge this. A real shame, for they do not know what they are missing.

Madcap said...

Anonymous said...
"They are so fixed in their thinking; the blinders are on just a bit too tight"

That's actually funny. Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am one of the most open minded, and free thinking people that they have even known. If you ever get the chance to come to my blog, and take some time to look around at the verity of things I post, I think you will get a small glimpse as to what I'm talking about.

I have things on anything from Jesus, to taking LSD. Spend some time on my articles on spiral dynamics, or take a ride on the thoughts of Nietzsche. Whatever you want to talk about bro.

I've practiced everything from Hinduism and Buddhism, to Sufism and Christianity. Whatever you want to talk about bro.

I was raised in a wealthy home, and have lived on the streets. Whatever you want to talk about bro.

Being open minded does not mean that I have to allow my brains to ooze out onto the floor. Most people that I talk to, that are in to "shades of gray," are rather black and white about their "shades of gray."

You must have mistaken me for someone else. My wife is laughing as I write.